My current framing of the MJ vs LeBron debate

[dtgold88]

Well it is easy to laugh and point out special individuals like yourself

sure thing, sport.

 

[Wamu]

sure thing, sport.

Can't recall ever seeing a bigger MJ nut-hugger. And the name calling. He knows the bestest wurdz.

 

[broncosmitty]

The relevance to this discussion is that Bird was drafted by a franchise that was able to build a contender in his first 2 years.

Of course Bird was a huge part of that.

But the point is he had absolutely no reason to want to leave. Between that and the state of free agency, it almost wasn’t even an option for him.

So it is unfair to criticize LeBron for playing in multiple cities when measuring against greats from past generations who played in vastly different circumstances.

It’s not unfair.

 

[msgkings322]

It’s not unfair.

Actually him winning FMVP with 3 different franchises helps his GOAT case

 

[broncosmitty]

Actually him winning FMVP with 3 different franchises helps his GOAT case

Not really.

Six with one team > four with three.

#science

 

[tlance]

It’s not unfair.

Sure it is.

Huge apples and oranges situation.

Put Bird in LeBron’s situation drafted by Cleveland with little around him.

He stays there, he wins nothing and he is another Karl Malone. Great player, but not in this conversation.

 

[broncosmitty]

Sure it is.

Huge apples and oranges situation.

Put Bird in LeBron’s situation drafted by Cleveland with little around him.

He stays there, he wins nothing and he is another Karl Malone. Great player, but not in this conversation.

It’s not unfair.

It is what it is.

Bird didn’t play an NBa game until he was 23. Imagine his legacy with five more seasons. He attended more colleges and played more college sports than he played for NBA franchises.


I’m not trying to put anyone but Jordan above LBJ.

Saying “Magic and Bird playing for one team is glory.” Isn’t cutting down all the other greats. It’s tipping the cap to two men.

 

[msgkings322]

Not really.

Six with one team > four with three.

#science

That's only one metric to measure greatness though. Is Walton better than Barkley, Malone? 1 > 0 is also science

Point being winning in 3 different places is a plus not a minus

 

[msgkings322]

It’s not unfair.

It is what it is.

Bird didn’t play an NBa game until he was 23. Imagine his legacy with five more seasons. He attended more colleges and played more college sports than he played for NBA franchises.
View attachment 355141

I’m not trying to put anyone but Jordan above LBJ.

Saying “Magic and Bird playing for one team is glory.” Isn’t cutting down all the other greats. It’s tipping the cap to two men.

Sure and playing only in one place has its own value, like winning everywhere you go (Larry Brown comes to mind as my pick for GOAT coach)

 

[broncosmitty]

That's only one metric to measure greatness though. Is Walton better than Barkley, Malone? 1 > 0 is also science

Point being winning in 3 different places is a plus not a minus

A healthy Walton is better than Barkley in my opinion. Championships aside.

Permed hair, can’t move Walton on the end of the Celtics bench, not better than Barkley.

Throw it down big fella.

 

[msgkings322]

A healthy Walton is better than Barkley in my opinion. Championships aside.

Permed hair, can’t move Walton on the end of the Celtics bench, not better than Barkley.

Throw it down big fella.

OK but now we're talking just a healthy peak vs a full career body of work? Shit that puts Derek Rose over a guy like Isaiah Thomas.

 

[broncosmitty]

Sure and playing only in one place has its own value, like winning everywhere you go (Larry Brown comes to mind as my pick for GOAT coach)

No arguement.

Larry is the shit.

 

[broncosmitty]

OK but now we're talking just a healthy peak vs a full career body of work? Shit that puts Derek Rose over a guy like Isaiah Thomas.

Um no.

 

[msgkings322]

Um no.

Better peak year (like Walton over Barkley) when healthy

Basically you are agreeing with the logic in one comparison and rejecting it in another

 

[broncosmitty]

Rose missing those free throws as a teenager will always be the first thing I think about him.

And how dumb it made Coach Cal look. And I like both guys.

 

[broncosmitty]

Better peak year (like Walton over Barkley) when healthy

Basically you are agreeing with the logic in one comparison and rejecting it in another

I don’t know what conversation you’re trying to put me in.

I’m not interested in comparing one of the greatest point guards ever to Derek Rose though.

 

[msgkings322]

I don’t know what conversation you’re trying to put me in.

I’m not interested in comparing one of the greatest point guards ever to Derek Rose though.

Then don't put Walton over Barkley. Because it's the same logic. Barkley was one of the greatest power forwards ever.

 

[broncosmitty]

Then don't put Walton over Barkley. Because it's the same logic. Barkley was one of the greatest power forwards ever.

Walton was one of the best centers.

 

[tlance]

It’s not unfair.

It is what it is.

Bird didn’t play an NBa game until he was 23. Imagine his legacy with five more seasons. He attended more colleges and played more college sports than he played for NBA franchises.
View attachment 355141

I’m not trying to put anyone but Jordan above LBJ.

Saying “Magic and Bird playing for one team is glory.” Isn’t cutting down all the other greats. It’s tipping the cap to two men.

What I am saying is that the circumstance surrounding the players in the 80s compared to the last 15 years is about as different as comparing and NBA player to an NFL player in terms of power and leverage.

It is just a completely different world.

Knocking LeBron for moving while propping up greats from past eras who didn’t is disingenuous.

 

[trojanfan12]

It’s not unfair.

It is what it is.

Bird didn’t play an NBa game until he was 23. Imagine his legacy with five more seasons. He attended more colleges and played more college sports than he played for NBA franchises.
View attachment 355141

I’m not trying to put anyone but Jordan above LBJ.

Saying “Magic and Bird playing for one team is glory.” Isn’t cutting down all the other greats. It’s tipping the cap to two men.

Yeah, this lacks a lot of context...

Lebron didn't have college experience because he was good enough coming out of high school to go directly to the NBA. Bird wasn't.

Bird didn't enter the NBA until he was 23 because after accepting a scholarship to Indiana, he dropped out after 1 month because he couldn't handle a large college campus. He returned to French Lick where he enrolled at Northwood Institute and worked municipal jobs for a year before going to Indiana State where played for 3 years. So, not entering the NBA until he was 23 was his own doing (Magic entered at 19 after 2 years at Michigan St.).

As @tlance pointed out, Magic, Bird and MJ were drafted by organizations who wanted to win titles and acquired the players and coaches that were necessary for that to happen, so there was no real incentive for them to leave. They weren't going to find better situations to win titles than they were already in. Lebron was drafted by Cleveland.

Additionally, as tlance also pointed out, the rules around free agency were far different and while they didn't exactly stop players moving, it hindered it far more than todays rules. The fact is, we don't know what MJ, Magic and Bird would have done because the FA rules were very different and they were drafted into far better situations.

So yes, it is unfair to use "those other all timers stayed" to downgrade Lebron.

For some odd reason, folks want to put Lebron into no win situations where...had he stayed in Cleveland and never won a title...folks would say he "couldn't lead teams to titles". He moves to better situations so that he can lead teams to titles and gets criticized because he wanted to win titles and went to teams willing to surround him with what he needed to win.

And, before you try the "superteams" argument...the Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics and MJ Bulls were all superteams...for that matter, so were the early 80's Sixers.