MLB HOF Vote

[calsnowskier]

I just measure him against other starting pitchers already in.

Believe me, I'm not a fan, but It makes no sense whatsoever that the likes of Jack Morris, Catfish Hunter and Mike Mussina are in and he's not.

I am a “small Hall” guy, and I don’t subscribe to the practice of expanding a mistake by making more mistakes. If we used that strategy, Harold Baines has opened the door to just about anyone who has ever had a cup-o-joe.

 

[calsnowskier]

as for Helton, i think it is totally unfair to say he doesnt make it because he was a rocky... I am ok with some kind of stat adjustment... but generally speaking most players play significantly better in their home parks... so you cant just look at the splits... as he was ALWAYS a rocky...

i did put him on the top of the non steroid list... so i am not saying he is a shoe in... but i do think he deserves to remain on the list for however long...

this is a very weak class of non steroid HOFers so who knows...

Just because he was a “face of the franchise” doesn’t put him in, imho. It certainly belongs on the resume, sure, but it isn’t a done deal metric.

His road stats are DRASTICALLY lower than his home stats. He only finished top 10 in MVP voting 3 times (5th in 2000, 9th in 2001 and 7th in 2003) despite his gaudy Coors numbers. While he is recognized as a good/great defensive 1B, 1B is one of the least demanding defensive positions on the field. The offensive bar for a 1B is about where the bar is for a DH (though, imho, a DH needs to be an absolutely OMG all-time great bat to even get consideration as a HOFer - Big Hurt is the only one who REALLY deserves any consideration).

Helton was good. I have respect for him as a player. I would have loved it if he were a Giant. But he needs to buy a ticket to get into the Hall, imho.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Just because he was a “face of the franchise” doesn’t put him in, imho. It certainly belongs on the resume, sure, but it isn’t a done deal metric.

His road stats are DRASTICALLY lower than his home stats. He only finished top 10 in MVP voting 3 times (5th in 2000, 9th in 2001 and 7th in 2003) despite his gaudy Coors numbers. While he is recognized as a good/great defensive 1B, 1B is one of the least demanding defensive positions on the field. The offensive bar for a 1B is about where the bar is for a DH (though, imho, a DH needs to be an absolutely OMG all-time great bat to even get consideration as a HOFer - Big Hurt is the only one who REALLY deserves any consideration).

Helton was good. I have respect for him as a player. I would have loved it if he were a Giant. But he needs to buy a ticket to get into the Hall, imho.

again, i think he will have more traction this year because the candidates are very weak outside of the steroid people...

But i do think that your analysis of his offense is unfair... again, most players have significant differences between their home and away stats... I dont think anyone argues that colorado is not the best place to hit... but how can anyone say that a player does not belong solely because they played for colorado their entire career....

Larry walker made it last year, deservingly.. and his numbers were majorly exaggerated because of colorado... sure, he showed promise elsewhere...

I wont be upset if he doesnt make it... but i do think he is one of the best choices this vote, and especially if the steroid group doesnt make it(which i dont think they will)

 

[calsnowskier]

again, i think he will have more traction this year because the candidates are very weak outside of the steroid people...

But i do think that your analysis of his offense is unfair... again, most players have significant differences between their home and away stats... I dont think anyone argues that colorado is not the best place to hit... but how can anyone say that a player does not belong solely because they played for colorado their entire career....

Larry walker made it last year, deservingly.. and his numbers were majorly exaggerated because of colorado... sure, he showed promise elsewhere...

I wont be upset if he doesnt make it... but i do think he is one of the best choices this vote, and especially if the steroid group doesnt make it(which i dont think they will)

I was never a Walker guy either, but at least he was a star before he ever signed with the Rox. And played decently enough at the tail end of his career for the Cards.

Will Helton make it, eventually? I tend to think that he will. But I think that is a (big overstatement coming…) travesty. He was a good player whose numbers were grossly inflated by his home park (city). I disagree with your defense of the playing conditions in Denver. I think offensive players should absolutely get a “stink” on them for playing there. Breaking pitches don’t break and balls travel further when hit. It is a video game stadium (Nothing against the stadium itself, everything I have heard says it is a great park, but it is located in Denver)

 

[calsnowskier]

To criticize my own arguments…

Why do I give Bonds, Clemens etc a break on using roids when they were not illegal, yet trash guys like Helton and Walker for playing in a league-sanctioned stadium?

It is different to me, but I need to think about it to verbalize why…

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I was never a Walker guy either, but at least he was a star before he ever signed with the Rox. And played decently enough at the tail end of his career for the Cards.

Will Helton make it, eventually? I tend to think that he will. But I think that is a (big overstatement coming…) travesty. He was a good player whose numbers were grossly inflated by his home park (city). I disagree with your defense of the playing conditions in Denver. I think offensive players should absolutely get a “stink” on them for playing there. Breaking pitches don’t break and balls travel further when hit. It is a video game stadium (Nothing against the stadium itself, everything I have heard says it is a great park, but it is located in Denver)

ill be honest... i also give players "bonuses" for playing there whole career in one place... i think that is a very under-rated statistic... sure, it is not a deciding factor in any sense... but it is something i include to my analysis...

but back to helton's numbers... a BA of .287 and an OBP of .386 for his career away is pretty damn good too... there is enough evidence that he would be around a .300 and .400 guy no matter what...

 

[nynasty]

I am a “small Hall” guy, and I don’t subscribe to the practice of expanding a mistake by making more mistakes. If we used that strategy, Harold Baines has opened the door to just about anyone who has ever had a cup-o-joe.

Baines shouldn't be in, no argument there, but Schilling was one of the best pitchers in the league for a pretty long stretch, while Baines was a compiler.

I guess that's the difference. Schilling had a dominant peak that lasted quite a while, he also had signature post-season moments. (much to my chagrin lol) Baines had neither.

 

[calsnowskier]

ill be honest... i also give players "bonuses" for playing there whole career in one place... i think that is a very under-rated statistic... sure, it is not a deciding factor in any sense... but it is something i include to my analysis...

but back to helton's numbers... a BA of .287 and an OBP of .386 for his career away is pretty damn good too... there is enough evidence that he would be around a .300 and .400 guy no matter what...

I like (top) guys who play for 1 city as well. I get it, and appreciate your “focus” on it. The Hall voting factors are NOT spelled out, so everyone is allowed to use whatever criteria they like.

His road numbers are not bad. But they are also not HOF, imho. But I am not a fan of rate stats over a career. That’s why I like WAR7 and I like looking at a players seasonal OPS+ numbers (as an example). Not that I really trust OPS+ or WAR, but if you look at them more as guides rather than hard numbers, and look at them as a resume piece over a career rather than a single season decider, they can be helpful.

 

[navamind]

I just measure him against other starting pitchers already in.

Believe me, I'm not a fan, but It makes no sense whatsoever that the likes of Jack Morris, Catfish Hunter and Mike Mussina are in and he's not.

One of those names doesn't belong with the other two.

 

[black francis]

bonds
clemens
andrUw jones
Ortiz
Pettitte
ManRam
A-Rod
Schilling
Shef

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I like (top) guys who play for 1 city as well. I get it, and appreciate your “focus” on it. The Hall voting factors are NOT spelled out, so everyone is allowed to use whatever criteria they like.

His road numbers are not bad. But they are also not HOF, imho. But I am not a fan of rate stats over a career. That’s why I like WAR7 and I like looking at a players seasonal OPS+ numbers (as an example). Not that I really trust OPS+ or WAR, but if you look at them more as guides rather than hard numbers, and look at them as a resume piece over a career rather than a single season decider, they can be helpful.

you realize Helton is top 10 all time in WAR7 for first baseman?? and only 2 of the 1b ahead of him are not in the Hall, of course they are not eligible yet, and that's why...

so, even your WAR7 focus, would put him in... so the only reason against him is that he played for colorado...

 

[calsnowskier]

rWAR does not take park factors into account. If you are hitting in a phone booth, you will have a higher rWAR than if you play in Yellowstone. Therefore, the Denver Stink remains.

 

[steveringo]

2022 BBHOF Tracker Summary and Leaderboard – Baseball Hall of Fame Vote Tracker

www.bbhoftracker.com

 

[Nasty_Magician]

 

[Pure Steel]

If only Mattingly had one more GG……

 

[navamind]

2022 BBHOF Tracker Summary and Leaderboard – Baseball Hall of Fame Vote Tracker

www.bbhoftracker.com

View attachment 286663

It would be a shame if Buehrle and Hudson fall off. And while I'm not huge on relievers getting in, Nathan's an interesting case.

 

[msgkings322]

2022 BBHOF Tracker Summary and Leaderboard – Baseball Hall of Fame Vote Tracker

www.bbhoftracker.com

View attachment 286663

So if my math is right 2 voters (net) had Bonds on their ballot but not Clemens. Fucking ridiculous.

 

[LHG]

So if my math is right 2 voters (net) had Bonds on their ballot but not Clemens. Fucking ridiculous.

And how does Pierzynski get a vote but Fielder and Peavy do not?

 

[LHG]

Shouldn't this guy get automatically disqualified from HOF conversations when he cannot even spell the 1st players' name correctly?

 

[Pure Steel]

Shouldn't this guy get automatically disqualified from HOF conversations when he cannot even spell the 1st players' name correctly?

He’s probably thinking of Willie Mayes Hayes……