Mariners 2014/2015 Offseason

[wazzu31]

Lots of negative nancys in here. And I dont blame you one bit, over a decade of bad baseball will do that to a fan base.

For all the people who point to the negative, and those are all valid. I choose to look glass half full.

-We have Cano, who now has some big league protection behind him,
-Cruz has big league right handed power, something we haven't seen in a long time.
-Seagers arc. He has improved every year in the bigs, I dont see a reason he wont improve off last year, especially since he'll be hitting in the 5 hole which is where he should be.
-CF, While im not the biggest fan of Jackson. He has plenty of experience and will give us professional AB's at the lead off spot. I also am very intrigued with Jones. Hope he continues to learn. Love his speed.
-Zunino. Someone pointed out his high SO rate. Thats cause he was forced up to the bigs. His D is all star callibar and if one guy from our farm system will figure out how to hit I think its him. He already has the power numbers, now just needs more contact

-Starting staff. You guys forget Kuma didn't have any spring ball. That I believe lead to his fall off.
-Ive already made my thoughts known about Paxton. Im all in on him being our number 2 this year. Small sample size yes but that easy lefty heat is something that you dont find every day.
-Bullpen, we still have big arms in there, I think big arms are more consistant. When in doubt reach back and throw 95 plus.

But again the team still has holes, specifically RF and SS. and theres a lot of off season left. Jack Z is known for his later lower risk signings. Also looks like the Melky market isn't what he thought it was, so we may still end up with him too..........


Too damn early to be disgruntled. We have all summer for that if things dont end up working out!

I don't think disgruntled is a good word as not sold as alot people are trying to hype it up as and giddy as some are selling. They made the Rodney and Cano signing then tried selling it off as they were going for it last year because all of the younger players were going to get better. They signed Cruz and some people are selling it off as going for it, but there seems to be zero signs of them "going for it" just making moves that create buzz. They have a ton of holes throughout the team and with have to pray that the offense has career years like the pitching did last year. I'm basing a ton of my negativity on the fact the bullpen cannot possibly get better than last year, IMO Kuma is done as a top of the rotation starter so they have Paxson, Felix, Walker (who they have no confidence in) and a bunch of possible 5th starters.

 

[cezero]

I don't think disgruntled is a good word as not sold as alot people are trying to hype it up as and giddy as some are selling. They made the Rodney and Cano signing then tried selling it off as they were going for it last year because all of the younger players were going to get better. They signed Cruz and some people are selling it off as going for it, but there seems to be zero signs of them "going for it" just making moves that create buzz. They have a ton of holes throughout the team and with have to pray that the offense has career years like the pitching did last year. I'm basing a ton of my negativity on the fact the bullpen cannot possibly get better than last year, IMO Kuma is done as a top of the rotation starter so they have Paxson, Felix, Walker (who they have no confidence in) and a bunch of possible 5th starters.

I'd usually be in the same camp as you...but they've spent $350 million on 3 guys in about 13 months. For cheap bastards like our ownership, that would be quite a lot of money invested to just intend to create buzz.

Kuma was pretty excellent until the end of the year, so "done" is kind of a wild statement to me. Exactly nobody in the baseball world looks at Iwakuma and thinks that, I guarantee you. Paxton's only going to get better I think, and even if Walker only does as well for a full season next year as he did for a handful of games in 2013, that's a pretty damn good #4 if you ask me, and Elias with that nasty curve...yeesh. Happ's numbers aren't awful so he provides good depth. Another starter would be nice for sure.

Relievers shouldn't have to work as hard this year if the offense plays even a little better. Just look at what they did being used so often. They may not reach the level they did in 2014, but I don't think that we're going to witness a precipitous dropoff.

For me, get an outfielder who can hit worth a shit, and the M's are in great shape.

 

[NWinAZ]

I'd usually be in the same camp as you...but they've spent $350 million on 3 guys in about 13 months. For cheap bastards like our ownership, that would be quite a lot of money invested to just intend to create buzz.

This is were I go to my standard argument. Yes they spent that sum, but they have to spend it somewhere in order to show their fanbase they are somewhat competitive. It still puts in them towards the middle of the back in payroll.

 

[NWinAZ]

I don't think disgruntled is a good word as not sold as alot people are trying to hype it up as and giddy as some are selling. They made the Rodney and Cano signing then tried selling it off as they were going for it last year because all of the younger players were going to get better. They signed Cruz and some people are selling it off as going for it, but there seems to be zero signs of them "going for it" just making moves that create buzz. They have a ton of holes throughout the team and with have to pray that the offense has career years like the pitching did last year. I'm basing a ton of my negativity on the fact the bullpen cannot possibly get better than last year, IMO Kuma is done as a top of the rotation starter so they have Paxson, Felix, Walker (who they have no confidence in) and a bunch of possible 5th starters.

Spot on.

 

[NWinAZ]

Lots of negative nancys in here. And I dont blame you one bit, over a decade of bad baseball will do that to a fan base.

I respect your post (posts actually), but I define 'negative nancys' differently. I see negative nancy as being when you take a positive and criticize it into a negative (i.e- A lotto winner crying about paying taxes on their winnings). Criticizing a team with 37 years of off season futility is realism.

In the end, we all want a winner. I just believe we have not done anything close to getting there but respect your view that they have. As always, time will tell. I'm on year 37 of waiting, but hey.

 

[cezero]

This is were I go to my standard argument. Yes they spent that sum, but they have to spend it somewhere in order to show their fanbase they are somewhat competitive. It still puts in them towards the middle of the back in payroll.

i just don't see why they would bother trading saunders right before signing cruz if they were done. if the signing of cruz and seager for 160 million were a gesture to appease to the unthinking, then they would be more than happy to leave the status quo of a shitty/inconsistent right field.

i certainly understand the pessimism. i just hope z/nintendo prove my optimism (fist time in over a decade) right.

 

[NWinAZ]

Why would they sign Cano for $240M and then close shop for another year? You are asking one of the unanswerable questions of the world. Or also known as a Jackism.

 

[wazzu31]

I'd usually be in the same camp as you...but they've spent $350 million on 3 guys in about 13 months. For cheap bastards like our ownership, that would be quite a lot of money invested to just intend to create buzz.

Kuma was pretty excellent until the end of the year, so "done" is kind of a wild statement to me. Exactly nobody in the baseball world looks at Iwakuma and thinks that, I guarantee you. Paxton's only going to get better I think, and even if Walker only does as well for a full season next year as he did for a handful of games in 2013, that's a pretty damn good #4 if you ask me, and Elias with that nasty curve...yeesh. Happ's numbers aren't awful so he provides good depth. Another starter would be nice for sure.

Relievers shouldn't have to work as hard this year if the offense plays even a little better. Just look at what they did being used so often. They may not reach the level they did in 2014, but I don't think that we're going to witness a precipitous dropoff.

For me, get an outfielder who can hit worth a shit, and the M's are in great shape.

I get that they have spent money which isn't my concern, my concern is that they have decided to open up the check book on a few guys while still not fielding an entire team.

Kuma has been excellent throughout his career, but this is just my opinion that he has hit the wall and is done as a MLB top of the rotation starter. Not saying he is going to be a sub .500 pitcher but IMO he has done what most Japanese pitchers/gimmicky type pitchers do and pitch well until their is a book on them. I can't buy into the he didn't pitch in spring training thing as his arm shouldn't have tired as it wouldn't have the innings and not as if the Mariners made him go throw complete games. Paxton and Walker I can agree to an extent but if Kuma does falter like I think they will need great years from both of them since I cannot see Elias or Haap being anything more than a 4th starter.

I don't think the bullpen will drop off a cliff either but I can't imagine any scenario where the offense/rotation that stands now that the bullpen will not have to put up the same numbers and stay competitive.

I will admit I might be a negative nancy because I don't believe a word that comes out of Jack's mouth nor do I believe in anything regarding the management of the team but I just don't see how (as of now) they will go into the next year where the entire season is hanging on record numbers and hope that Jackson can resemble a MLB player again and the young guys play beyond what they have shown.

Even with the Cruz signing I still believe Jack has zero plan just as he did last offseason just a lot of hot air he tries to sell when he does interviews.

 

[wazzu31]

i just don't see why they would bother trading saunders right before signing cruz if they were done. if the signing of cruz and seager for 160 million were a gesture to appease to the unthinking, then they would be more than happy to leave the status quo of a shitty/inconsistent right field.

i certainly understand the pessimism. i just hope z/nintendo prove my optimism (fist time in over a decade) right.

Not to hop on what Zona said but I still don't think Jack has a plan. They had a strength in the bullpen but signed Rodney but they didn't address the offensive holes they had. They did sign Cano but out of all the areas of the organization that needed an upgrade the middle infield position was the least of their worries. He IMO showed how weak/clueless/short sided of a GM he is that the Mariners entered spring training with Ackley, Franklin, Miller and Taylor still in camp. And now he deals Saunders which leaves him with zero leverage in any deal involving an outfielder. Melky can say f you you have no other options so give me more money and the same with the Braves in terms of getting Walker and Paxton. Jack always seems to back himself into a corner of being in a position of weakness involving any deal.

 

[cezero]

Why would they sign Cano for $240M and then close shop for another year? You are asking one of the unanswerable questions of the world. Or also known as a Jackism.

just the signings so far would make a little more sense to me as a "going through the motions" thing for this club.

trading saunders in the middle of it all? that's what throws me.

could just be a random jackism as you put it, but committing 1/3 of a billion dollars over the past 13 months has made me slightly less cynical than i used to be.

 

[gowazzu02]

Im really shocked that all of you point to the saunders trade as the reason or main reason you think this offseasons blown or in a position to be blown......guys were talking about saunders here. Guti 2.0 without the production when he was healthy.

Theres lots of off season left. We could always resign denorfrio, and platoon him with jones. Thats worst case scenario.....and you know what thats what we had last year cause guti 2.0 was surprise on the dl much of the year.

When your mad just think cano, cruz, seagar. And king kuma paxton!

Also thanks whoever mentioned elias, hes been lost in the shuffle, he had a great first year

 

[NWinAZ]

Yet 2008 is still our highest payroll. Again, for me it isn't about spending big on a few guys but building complete team. I like steak as well as anyone, but I need the sides to make it complete.

 

[NWinAZ]

Im really shocked that all of you point to the saunders trade as the reason or main reason you think this offseasons blown or in a position to be blown......guys were talking about saunders here. Guti 2.0 without the production when he was healthy.

Theres lots of off season left. We could always resign denorfrio, and platoon him with jones. Thats worst case scenario.....and you know what thats what we had last year cause guti 2.0 was surprise on the dl much of the year.

When your mad just think cano, cruz, seagar. And king kuma paxton!

Also thanks whoever mentioned elias, hes been lost in the shuffle, he had a great first year

Saunders trade won't make or break the off season. It really has little to no effect on things imo.

Denorfia? Have you seen him play the last coupe of years. He is beyond worst case scenarios.

Kuma finished poorly, pitch poorly in Japan, gets injured often, and is on the bad side of pitching age for Aces.

Paxton is intriguing, but still a question mark. Young with arm troubles is not someone to bank on for playoff runs.

Walker is Paxton but with less intrigue and more problems.

Elias is Walker with same answer but using Walker as his comparison.

Dodgers, Red Sox, White Sox, A's have all been there and done that yet they still find the need to make major moves and multiple moves. I don't see why expecting less from the Mariners is being negative.

 

[unlvmariners]

Im really shocked that all of you point to the saunders trade as the reason or main reason you think this offseasons blown or in a position to be blown......guys were talking about saunders here. Guti 2.0 without the production when he was healthy.

For me the Saunders trade isn't the main reason, just a contributing factor. For me the timing of the Saunders trade was odd especially when the trade was for a mediocre pitcher straight up. A trade like that can happen after you have the piece/player to replace him. Earlier in the thread someone else mentioned the leverage factor as well. Personally the bottom line with Saunders is that I think he is a pretty solid player that in a pinch you could put in RF and get respectable numbers out of him if you don't get your guy in the off season. Of course there is the injury issues but I say cross that bridge when you get to it. As it stands now our RF is James Jones and Stefan Romero- and the replacement options are dwindling. Jack Z does this almost every off season backs himself into a corner and that is when we will see the 1 year Jason Bay type deals.

I completely understand that the off season isn't over yet and they signed Nelson Cruz and extended Seager which both are great and anything can happen from now until the season starts. But to this point in the off season I think the FO has handled player acquisition poorly and tentatively for a team with a short window of opportunity.

 

[DunceKaep]

Who has more upside in the next two seasons?


Elias or Kuma.??????


This young inexperienced lefty and this older righty craftsman. Both have pluses.
IMO, Kuma when ON, is awesome, Elias when ON is younger, just learning and pretty good.


Elias in AAA is a good idea, through May, then, he is called up because he is dominating. Kuma we shall see, he MAY, ( I say MAY) be on decline and time to trade him. Is KUMA tradeable for a major piece?????

 

[Thisnamewasntaken]

I get that they have spent money which isn't my concern, my concern is that they have decided to open up the check book on a few guys while still not fielding an entire team.

Kuma has been excellent throughout his career, but this is just my opinion that he has hit the wall and is done as a MLB top of the rotation starter. Not saying he is going to be a sub .500 pitcher but IMO he has done what most Japanese pitchers/gimmicky type pitchers do and pitch well until their is a book on them. I can't buy into the he didn't pitch in spring training thing as his arm shouldn't have tired as it wouldn't have the innings and not as if the Mariners made him go throw complete games. Paxton and Walker I can agree to an extent but if Kuma does falter like I think they will need great years from both of them since I cannot see Elias or Haap being anything more than a 4th starter.

I don't think the bullpen will drop off a cliff either but I can't imagine any scenario where the offense/rotation that stands now that the bullpen will not have to put up the same numbers and stay competitive.

I will admit I might be a negative nancy because I don't believe a word that comes out of Jack's mouth nor do I believe in anything regarding the management of the team but I just don't see how (as of now) they will go into the next year where the entire season is hanging on record numbers and hope that Jackson can resemble a MLB player again and the young guys play beyond what they have shown.

Even with the Cruz signing I still believe Jack has zero plan just as he did last offseason just a lot of hot air he tries to sell when he does interviews.

I said I thought that Kuma was done before last season lol and I was wrong but I think his value was at it's peak and if it wasn't then it sure as hell probably was the trade deadline of this year but there was no way we were shipping him out when we were in the hunt and that's ok. I'm with you thinking Kuma is probably close to done and that 2015 won't be a repeat of a nice performance. I want to be proven wrong though!

 

[Thisnamewasntaken]

Yet 2008 is still our highest payroll. Again, for me it isn't about spending big on a few guys but building complete team. I like steak as well as anyone, but I need the sides to make it complete.

...and a tall glass of "Melk" to wash it down haha.

 

[NWinAZ]

...and a tall glass of "Melk" to wash it down haha.

 

[NWinAZ]

Melky for me is a must to help this team with next step unless you can pull off the trade of the decade which Jack would never be able to do.

Order of satisfaction for me to show that this team is serious about taking the next step:

1- Melky & Blanks/Gomes & Volquez & Beachy/Medlen/Anderson (1-RF, 1 RH-1B, 1-SP, 1-SP Inj Rehab player)

2- Trade Ackley, Taylor, and Medina for Desmond, Zimmerman, Souza.

3- Sign Shields and Blanks/Gomes and trade Maurer for Souza

4- Trade Walker, Taylor, Marlette, and Maurer for Zobrist, Escobar, Archer, and Myers

5- Walker. Taylor, Maurer, Marlette for Tulo and Dickerson/Blackmon

 

[wazzu31]

Im really shocked that all of you point to the saunders trade as the reason or main reason you think this offseasons blown or in a position to be blown......guys were talking about saunders here. Guti 2.0 without the production when he was healthy.

Theres lots of off season left. We could always resign denorfrio, and platoon him with jones. Thats worst case scenario.....and you know what thats what we had last year cause guti 2.0 was surprise on the dl much of the year.

When your mad just think cano, cruz, seagar. And king kuma paxton!

Also thanks whoever mentioned elias, hes been lost in the shuffle, he had a great first year

It's not so much that it was Saunders, it's that the weakness on the team was a RH power bat and the outfield. Regardless of health you don't trade a starter let alone the best all around outfielder unless you have a deal lined up if you are "going for it". Going into any negotiation in life from a position of weakness isn't ideal but you cannot put yourself in the situation of straight desperation.

I just can't buy into a platoon is the solution for RF especially if it involves Jones. Part of it is that Jones does not have the arm to be a corner outfielder and the other is that Jones is a young player and it stunts any young players growth if he is platooning with another guy.

I don't think Elias is lost in the shuffle as opposed to I don't think many people believe he is a starter that you have to rely on. Going into the season Felix is a given, but if the rest of the rotation is made up of a combination of three young players, Haap and Kuma then that is going to tax your bullpen and even with Melky the team cannot succeed next season with a warn out bullpen.