Legit rankings without preseason ranking consideration

[jonvi]

Long out of popcorn....I've moved on to chips and salsa.

 

[john01992]

I never said it was a problem. I certainly didn't scream it. In fact, I pretty clearly said it wasn't a problem. (see what I mean about you not understanding what the argument is about?)

Syracuse on average has a terrible OOC schedule compared to other top tier programs. You can debate the implications of that statement until the cows come home. I couldn't care less. But you can't debate the accuracy of the claim, as it is demonstrably true.

no you are just constantly bringing it up while bashing syracuse's OOC. <== saying you are not trying to cast it in a negative light is like saying osama bin laden wives wore bikini's in public

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

HEY DUMBASS

you did not show me "how many times" these teams played. all you did was manipulate shit to make the issue look much worse than it appeared.

You're right. I didn't show how many times they played. I showed how many times those teams played out of their home state in their OOC schedule. Since the point of contention was how mnay time Syracuse does (or more to the point doesn't) play outside of its home state compared to other top-tier teams, I think I showed a much more relevant set of information.

for example:
syracuse plays a tourny in MSG and a H&H at NC state

shows up as "syracuse played 3 games in NY, one game outside of NY"

uconn plays a tourny in MSG and a H&H with NC state

shows up as "uconn played 4 games outside of CT"

then you guys say "look uconn traveled outside the state of CT FOUR TIMES"

Actually "us guys" never said anything of the sort. I said, Duke and MSU and Kentucky and Kansas. (I also offered to show you stats for UNC and and Florida and OSU, but thus far you've declined) I never compared UConn's schedule to Syracuse's.

which disregards 2 things

1) syracuse traveled more than uconn in doing that (in this example at least)
2) uconn made 2 out of state trips compared to SUs 1 in-state trip & 1 out of state trip

Was the knock against Syracuse that they don't travel enough? Nope. Was the knock against Syracuse that they don't make enough trips? Nope. The knock against Syracuse was that they don't leave their home state as much as other top tier programs. You've done nothing to disprove that notion.

you said duke traveled outside the state of NC 15x ==> but what really happened. they played 3 tournys outside the state of NC. so you take those 9 games as 9 different roadtrips when it was really only 3 roadtrips

That would be an interesting point if true, but it isn't, so eat a dick. I never said it was different road trips. I called them games, and even made the specific distinction between games and trips. I also pointed out when you tried to use this lame-shit argument that it works against Syracuse too.

add to the extra bullshit of
-NYC being 5 hrs away when a good portion of those "out of state trips" that other elite teams play are within a 5 hr radius
-every major program plays in NYC ooc (duke takes two different trips there each year)

There you go again... you act like being 5 hours away form MSG is some big fucking burden for Syracuse, here you downplay it like, hey, it's only 5 hours. You can't have it both ways.

thats why all this nonsense hate spewed from you is nonsense. yall dont have crap when it comes to this argument. the only people that resort to this are either uneducated or massive homers

I can't help it that you don't understand what the argument is. I've tried to explain it to you. I've said that the knocks against Cuse's schedule don't matter. I'm just stating that the knocks against Cuse's schedule are accurate. (and I've proven it pretty conclusively) You just keep trying to change the subject and bringing up a bunch of other shit.

and wow......it must be over 20x now that i have asked what the significance of leaving ones state is? ==> every single damn fucken time you just ignore that question.

And I've said repeatedly that it doesn't matter. Sorry you're hung up on that point.

and isnt it funny trolly how you (as usual) completely ignore every single solid point I make. like the home game dependency thing. you didnt touch that one

Well, I didn't ignore it. I pointed out that it isn't relevant to the discussion and that your assertion about Cuse making the most money per home game was wrong too. I'm not sure what else you expect me to say.

no you are just constantly bringing it up while bashing syracuse's OOC. <== saying you are not trying to cast it in a negative light is like saying osama bin laden wives wore bikini's in public

Well their OOC is shit. Of course I'm casting it in a negative light. The fact that it's shit is my whole point. It has been from the beginning. You keep bring up excuses why its shit, but you haven't made a single point to address that.

I simply said the sky is blue. You keep bouncing back and forth between trying to claim the sky isn't blue, and then explaining why the sky is blue. I already know the sky is blue. You trying to explain why is never going to make my assertion any less correct.

 

[john01992]

That would be an interesting point if true, but it isn't, so eat a dick. I never said it was different road trips. I called them games, and even made the specific distinction between games and trips

funny cuz heres what you said earlier:

Same period, MSU played NINE ranked teams and left the state of Michigan THIRTEEN times.
Same period, Duke played EIGHT ranked teams and left the state of North Carolina FOURTEEN times.
Same period, UK played EIGHT ranked teams and left the Commonwealth of Kentucky FIFTEEN times.
Same period, KU played SIX ranked teams and left the state of Kansas FIFTEEN times.


I think that proves it. your honesty is as bad as your stupidity

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Same period, MSU played NINE ranked teams and left the state of Michigan for THIRTEEN games.
Same period, Duke played EIGHT ranked teams and left the state of North Carolina for FOURTEEN games.
Same period, UK played EIGHT ranked teams and left the Commonwealth of Kentucky for FIFTEEN games.
Same period, KU played SIX ranked teams and left the state of Kansas for FIFTEEN games.

Happy now?

Does it change my point at all? (no)

Regardless if your're talking games or trips, Syracuse's OOC schedule still doesn't match up to the big boys.

 

[john01992]

Happy now?

Does it change my point at all? (no)

Regardless if your're talking games or trips, Syracuse's OOC schedule still doesn't match up to the big boys.

well you did get busted big time for that insane lie.

and the point still stands for me. kentucky, kansas, indiana, north carolina etc. not having any major early season tournys while the NYC area has several inflates the stats

in football or BB anytime someone wants to play us they always push for NYC instead because of the history/market/alumni/recruiting associated with that area. look at SU football. we have played, PSU, notre dame, & USC in NYC more than once. 2 pinstripe bowl appearances. frequenting NYC is just the product of being the biggest athletic brand in the region

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

well you did get busted big time for that insane lie.

Insane lie? That's a little melodramatic isn't it? Did I call it an insane lie when you claimed that Syracuse makes more money per home game than any other program? No. I said you were wrong.

and the point still stands for me. kentucky, kansas, indiana, north carolina etc. not having any major early season tournys while the NYC area has several inflates the stats

That's a terrible point for two reasons...
1) NYC doesn't have a lock on early season events. It's not like Syracuse can't play out of state. They just don't.
2) Even if you ignore all the games in MSG played by UK, MSU et al, they still play out of state more than Syracuse.

in football or BB anytime someone wants to play us they always push for NYC instead because of the history/market/alumni/recruiting associated with that area. look at SU football. we have played, PSU, notre dame, & USC in NYC more than once. 2 pinstripe bowl appearances. frequenting NYC is just the product of being the biggest athletic brand in the region

Again, cool story bro, but it doesn't change the fact that Syracuse doesn't hardly ever leave NY in their OOC schedule.

Like I said before. I'm just stating that the sky is blue. You're the one that keeps flip flopping back and forth between, "it isn't blue" and "well, it's only blue because..." Neither of which change the fact that any objective person can see.. the sky is blue, and Syracuse usually plays a shit OOC schedule.

 

[john01992]

Again, cool story bro, but it doesn't change the fact that Syracuse doesn't hardly ever leave NY in their OOC schedule.

^^^^^
if it doesnt matter why do you keep bringing this up? its a non issue. plenty of other schools play in NYC, plenty of other schools "out of state games" are closer than SU-NYC.

you keep saying "i am not bringing this up in a negative light" but the very fact that you keep mentioning it shows that you are.

its just a troll stat that has zero argument to it other than those looking to troll and not have a legitimate debate. its like saying we are not an english speaking nation. "english is not the official language of the US.....but hey i am just stating a fact just like the sky is blue. because the FACT IS english is not the official language of the US"

^^^^
yeah thats how stupid you sound with this BS.

only in your world does a 2 hr trip by Uconn count less than a 5 hr trip by SU

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

if it doesnt matter why do you keep bringing this up? its a non issue. plenty of other schools play in NYC, plenty of other schools "out of state games" are closer than SU-NYC.

I keep bringing it up because you keep denying it. If it's a non issue, then just admit I'm right about it and move on.

You won't of course, because you're too stubborn to ever admit that I was right. Instead, you're going to keep trying to misquote me, change the subject, and try and claim I've said things that I haven't.

you keep saying "i am not bringing this up in a negative light" but the very fact that you keep mentioning it shows that you are.

Keep saying it? Where did I claim that I'm not bringing it up in a negative light? I think I've been pretty clear that Syracuse's OOC schedule is typically pretty shitty. I think I've done a pretty good job of demonstrating that, over the previous ten years.

But if you think one true road game against a ranked opponent over the course of an entire 10 year stretch means you have a big boy schedule, you're wrong.

its just a troll stat that has zero argument to it other than those looking to troll and not have a legitimate debate. its like saying we are not an english speaking nation. "english is not the official language of the US.....but hey i am just stating a fact just like the sky is blue. because the FACT IS english is not the official language of the US"

Actually, you're the one trying to turn the argument into "is the US an English speaking nation?" I'm not arguing that. In this dumb analogy, I'm saying that English isn't the official language, and you're bouncing back and forth between arguing that English is the official language and claiming it isn't the official language because not enough people speak English.

I'm saying the sky is blue, and you're bouncing back and forth between arguing that the sky isn't blue, and making excuses about clouds.

I'm saying that Syracuse's OOC schedule doesn't stack up to the likes of KY, KU, MSU, Duke, et al, and you're bouncing back and forth between claiming that it is as good as those other teams', and it isn't as good because you have to sell beer to Canisius fans every year.

only in your world does a 2 hr trip by Uconn count less than a 5 hr trip by SU

There you go talking about UConn again. Where did I ever say that?

Have you ever quoted me accurately at all on this site? Ever? Even once?

For the record, I'd be happy to engage you in a conversation about the merits of playing at home a lot, and why it isn't a good idea to play a loaded schedule early if you're committed to playing a load schedule late too. But there's no point in doing that if you can't even acknowledge the facts presented to you.

 

[john01992]

For the record, I'd be happy to engage you in a conversation about the merits of playing at home a lot, and why it isn't a good idea to play a loaded schedule early if you're committed to playing a load schedule late too. But there's no point in doing that if you can't even acknowledge the facts presented to you.

i will do that only when you drop this state of NY thing. the only people who bring it up are total bullshitters. we are at a standstill. i say the state of NY thing is total BS and shouldnt even be brought into the conversation. you say that i am too stubborn to not admit that it is true. <== from my angle we are both correct in a way. but i am more correct than you cuz it never should of been brought up. it has absolutely no relevance to the topic of quality of OOC and the only time playing in ones own state does gain a competitive advantage is if its a major state landgrant.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

i will do that only when you drop this state of NY thing. the only people who bring it up are total bullshitters.

I'm not going to drop it because it is correct. There isn't any point trying to have an intelligent discussion with you if you won't even acknowledge a simple fact.

Fact: In the previous ten seasons, Syracuse only played 11 noncon games outside the state of New York.

You can make all the judgements and evaluations you want about it, but it doesn't change that fact.

Fact: In the previous ten seasons, Syracuse had 3 seasons where they didn't play a single noncon game outside the state of New York.

You can make all the judgements and evaluations you want about it, but it doesn't change that fact.

You can say how irrelevant that is or how misleading the fact is, or how unfair the fact is, but none of that changes the facts listed above. If you can't simply acknowledge the reality of Syrsacuse's noncon schedule, then we'd be discussing a piece of fiction anyway.

Just admit that Syracuse hardly ever leaves NY in their nonconference schedule. You keep crying about how meaningless it is every time I say it... if it's so meaningless, then why are you so adamant about denying it?

i say the state of NY thing is total BS and shouldnt even be brought into the conversation. you say that i am too stubborn to not admit that it is true. <== from my angle we are both correct in a way. but i am more correct than you cuz it never should of been brought up. it has absolutely no relevance to the topic of quality of OOC

First of all, nobody put you in charge of what the fuck other people are allowed to bring up. The fact is it was brought up (because it most certainly is a criticism levied against SU) and since then, you've simply been to stubborn to admit it, hiding behind "you can't bring that up... it's not fair!"

and the only time playing in ones own state does gain a competitive advantage is if its a major state landgrant.

That's bullshit and you know it. You're telling me that Syracuse doesn't have an advantage over Florida in MSG? You're telling me that Syracuse doesn't have an advantage over Michigan State when they play in MSG? Hate to brek it to you, but nobody gives a fuck about Cornell. Land grant, or not. Syracuse draws the fans in New York.

 

[john01992]

so basically you are saying.

i cant call out comments that are irrelevant because they are irrelevant simply because it is a fact?

its like a bouncer denying someone from a club:
the guy asks: why
the bouncer says: because you are black
the guy asks: why does that matter
the bouncer says: you are black. is that not a fact?
the guy says: why is that a bad thing?
the bouncer says: so to be clear. you deny that you are black?
the guy says: you can not deny me because i am black
the bouncer says: how come you are allowed to say what i can & can not say.

thats basically sums up the conversation between us

and you did it again: you brought it up aimed at showing SU's ooc in a negative light. you are totally blinded by the fact that it makes no difference whatsoever on the strength of a schools OOC.

 

[john01992]

That's bullshit and you know it. You're telling me that Syracuse doesn't have an advantage over Florida in MSG? You're telling me that Syracuse doesn't have an advantage over Michigan State when they play in MSG? Hate to brek it to you, but nobody gives a fuck about Cornell. Land grant, or not. Syracuse draws the fans in New York.

i was talking in the sense of anywhere they go in a state they draw big. like texas drawing big from el paso to houston while baylor tcu & smu dont

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

so basically you are saying.

i cant call out comments that are irrelevant because they are irrelevant simply because it is a fact?

No. You can call out irrelevant facts as irrelevant. But you can't deny they are facts which is what you've tried to do since the beginning.

I spelled out very clearly what the criticisms against Cuse have been over the years. One of them is that Cuse rarely leaves the state of New York. Relevant or not, it has been brought up. I'm not the first obviously, I'm just pointing out that it's been brought up. That being said, I do think it is relevant in the context of criticisms that have been made against Cuse's schedule. It has been brought up, many times, long before I ever said anything about it. It's not like I invented some bullsiht stat just to get under your skin. People have been saying it about Cuse for years.

and you did it again: you brought it up aimed at showing SU's ooc in a negative light. you are totally blinded by the fact that it makes no difference whatsoever on the strength of a schools OOC.

I'm not blinded by that at all. I've very clearly stated that it doesn't matter for Syracuse. And I'm not quite sure why you keep saying... "you did it again" as if I'm trying to be sneaky about something. I've openly stated on multiple occasions that Syracuse's OOC schedule is shit. I'm not trying to hide anything about that.

 

[john01992]

No. You can call out irrelevant facts as irrelevant. But you can't deny they are facts which is what you've tried to do since the beginning.

I spelled out very clearly what the criticisms against Cuse have been over the years. One of them is that Cuse rarely leaves the state of New York. Relevant or not, it has been brought up. I'm not the first obviously, I'm just pointing out that it's been brought up. That being said, I do think it is relevant in the context of criticisms that have been made against Cuse's schedule. It has been brought up, many times, long before I ever said anything about it. It's not like I invented some bullsiht stat just to get under your skin. People have been saying it about Cuse for years.



I'm not blinded by that at all. I've very clearly stated that it doesn't matter for Syracuse. And I'm not quite sure why you keep saying... "you did it again" as if I'm trying to be sneaky about something. I've openly stated on multiple occasions that Syracuse's OOC schedule is shit. I'm not trying to hide anything about that.

so you are basically saying the bouncer can keep citing racial discrimination simply because the guy is indeed a minority

-okay good to know

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

so you are basically saying the bouncer can keep citing racial discrimination simply because the guy is indeed a minority

-okay good to know

No, I said no such thing. Nice job of completely misstating my side once again. You're like the straw-man king.

But no, that's a shitty example, for a ton of reasons, the least of which is...

I made a simple claim. The bouncer isn't claiming anything, he's violating a guys' civil rights. Not the same thing, not even a little bit.

What you just did there is a nifty little logical fallacy called "appeal to emotion" where you injected racism and civil rights violations into a situation where it had no bearing, hoping to illicit a particular emotional response.

You brought up people giving Cuse crap about their OOC schedule. Now you're saying, I'm not even supposed to mention what the crap is? That's a pretty interesting stance. How can we have a conversation about it, if we don't even establish what's being talked about?

A better analogy would be if someone shitheel claimed that the QBR was a terrible index and then said it was terrible because it rated Tim Tebow above Aaron Rogers in a single game game. Now we all know that's a mis-applied stat, and actually has fuck-all to do with how good the QBR is overall, but it I can't act like it wasn't said... it was. I can't act as if the QBR didn't actually have those results... it did.

 

[john01992]

No, I said no such thing. Nice job of completely misstating my side once again. You're like the straw-man king.

But no, that's a shitty example, for a ton of reasons, the least of which is...

I made a simple claim. The bouncer isn't claiming anything, he's violating a guys' civil rights. Not the same thing, not even a little bit.

What you just did there is a nifty little logical fallacy called "appeal to emotion" where you injected racism and civil rights violations into a situation where it had no bearing, hoping to illicit a particular emotional response.

You brought up people giving Cuse crap about their OOC schedule. Now you're saying, I'm not even supposed to mention what the crap is? That's a pretty interesting stance. How can we have a conversation about it, if we don't even establish what's being talked about?

A better analogy would be if someone shitheel claimed that the QBR was a terrible index and then said it was terrible because it rated Tim Tebow above Aaron Rogers in a single game game. Now we all know that's a mis-applied stat, and actually has fuck-all to do with how good the QBR is overall, but it I can't act like it wasn't said... it was. I can't act as if the QBR didn't actually have those results... it did.

with this "in the state of new york comment" you are basically saying.......

the bouncer saying: you are black

everytime a guy asks why he cant get in is perfectly okay for him to do cuz the dude is in fact black.

why are you such a proponent of discrimination?

no this is not like QBR. this is a perfect valid analogy to compare the same argument you made with SU & the leaving a state line

 

[john01992]

change it to "because you have blue eyes" cuz racial discrimination gets such a rise outta ya and the point still stands

 

[Great Dayne]

This thread has been ruined by irrelevant arguments. Please take this outside gentlemen.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

with this "in the state of new york comment" you are basically saying.......

the bouncer saying: you are black

everytime a guy asks why he cant get in is perfectly okay for him to do cuz the dude is in fact black.

why are you such a proponent of discrimination?

no this is not like QBR. this is a perfect valid analogy to compare the same argument you made with SU & the leaving a state line

No, still not a valid comparison. You've grossly oversimplified the scenario (no big shock, as you clearly have trouble grasping complex ideas)

The bouncer in this case is a racist asshole. Period. If he says he didn't let the guy in because he's black, that's pretty much the end of the discussion. There is no debate going on here. There is nothing to debate.

Your analogy totally falls short.

If you had two other people talking about why the guy wasn't let in by the bouncer, and if those reasons were valid, then you might be on to something, but the scenario you painted has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.

You claimed that people were giving Syracuse unwarranted crap about their OOC schedule.

but the crap we get about our OOC is completely unwarranted

I responded by saying that some of the claims were true and valid.

You said what you thought was Bullshit...

cuse doesnt leave the state of new york,
MSG is a de facto home game
Cuse doesnt play any true road games
^^^^
all that BS.

So I addressed what YOU said. YOU brought up Syracuse not leaving the state of NY. Not me. So you just get to call something bullshit, and no one is aloud to refute what you've said? I think I see the problem.

You don't even want to allow any discussion on whether those things are true or not, before we even get around to talking about if they are legitimate concerns.

And yes, this is exactly like the QBR. In both cases two bystanders (you and me) are discussing the value of something (QBR and Cuse's OOC) In both cases someone brought up a statistic that was undeniably true (Tebow was rated higher than Rogers in a game, and Syracuse hardly ever leaves the state of NY in OOC play) but of questionable significance. In both cases, the someone outside of the discussion actually proposed that the stat was significant, (people in the other thread brought up the Rogers stat, and plenty of people have been claiming the NY state stat regarding Cuse) The difference though is that I didn't pitch a hissy fit over you bringing up the Rogers stat, and I certainly never tried to claim that it wasn't true. But when I tried to address the stat that YOU brought up and I acknowledged... you just lost your shit and claimed I have no right to bring it up.