Kyrie Irving is now a...

[tlance]

CP3 is probably the best PURE point guard in the league- but you are hanging onto and attached to an outdated notion of what a point guard is.

in 2016 Kyrie Irving, Russell Westbrook, Derek Rose, Curry, Lillard, Bledsoe, Jeff Teague, Reggie Jackson, etc. are point guards

Rondo, Rubio, Wall, CP, Lowry (maybe), Conley etc. might be more like what you grew up watching--- but the times they are a changing bud.

-not to mention- if you have a point guard who cant shoot a 3- you are behind the 8 ball and BETTER have a big man that can shoot the light out to balance it out.

No. Chris Paul and Mike Conley are the two best examples of point guard play in the NBA. Conley especially, because he is willing to give the ball up early instead of holding it for 10 seconds.

I am not interested in a PG like Rondo who can't shoot and is a terrible leader. Rubio is a good distributor, but again, he can't shoot, so the offense takes a hit. Wall creates, but is too ball dominant.

I agree times are changing, but that does not mean that the change is for the good. I am not one who clings to past eras, but this is the one thing that greatly disturbs me about the game today. Playing alongside a ball dominant 1 is brutally frustrating.

 

[flyerhawk]

20 years ago, it was easy to point to guys like John Stockton and Jason Kidd as models for what the point guard position should be. Now who is there? Kids want to be Westbrook, Lillard and Curry. They want to score 30. Nobody wants to facilitate ball movement. This leads to more selfish, 1 on 1 play.

Yes the game is far less about isolations and individual play than it was 10 years ago.

 

[Mecca]

No. Chris Paul and Mike Conley are the two best examples of point guard play in the NBA. Conley especially, because he is willing to give the ball up early instead of holding it for 10 seconds.

I am not interested in a PG like Rondo who can't shoot and is a terrible leader. Rubio is a good distributor, but again, he can't shoot, so the offense takes a hit. Wall creates, but is too ball dominant.

I agree times are changing, but that does not mean that the change is for the good. I am not one who clings to past eras, but this is the one thing that greatly disturbs me about the game today. Playing alongside a ball dominant 1 is brutally frustrating.

Well said.

.......and again....

Part of the reason that guys like Curry and Kyrie have had great Team success, recently, is because their Teams play point forward.

Lebron and Draymond are the defacto playmakers.

Teams like the Bucks * Greek Freak * and Philly * Simmons * will try to replicate that success.

I doubt it works out for them because both guys, and both Teams, lack the shooting prowess to spread the floor like the Warriors and Cavs.

Ben is outright terrified to miss a shot.

Simmons and Giannis could probably average 7 or 8 dimes a contest if they weren't playing with a roster full of bricklayers.

But, won't it be fun to see the Deer roll out their nearly all 7 foot lineup?

Freak at the point, Thon at sg, Parker at sf, Henson at Pf and Monroe at the 5!#!##

Never happen. But, would love it if it did.

 

[WiggyRuss]

No. Chris Paul and Mike Conley are the two best examples of point guard play in the NBA. Conley especially, because he is willing to give the ball up early instead of holding it for 10 seconds.

I am not interested in a PG like Rondo who can't shoot and is a terrible leader. Rubio is a good distributor, but again, he can't shoot, so the offense takes a hit. Wall creates, but is too ball dominant.

I agree times are changing, but that does not mean that the change is for the good. I am not one who clings to past eras, but this is the one thing that greatly disturbs me about the game today. Playing alongside a ball dominant 1 is brutally frustrating.

well just look at the results. they speak for themselves.

 

[Mecca]

well just look at the results. they speak for themselves.

Well, Kyrie and Steph have rings and CP3 doesn't.

Guess you have a valid point there.

Can't say the Clippers don't have talent around Chris.

Maybe not the RIGHT talent.

But, the great players make due.

I blame the curse.

 

[knowyourenemy]

Yeah because he has played more games...Irving has the better win share tho, which is all that matters

Win share/48 shows win share each year....U lost, give it a rest

Maybe we should evaluate the usefulness of advanced metrics for limited sample sizes like win shares over the course of 20-or-so playoff games.

 

[knowyourenemy]

I think most people will agree with

1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. CP3
with Irving and Lillard fighting for 4 and 5

I'd probably throw Kyle Lowry in there over Irving and Lillard, with the knowledge that Irving and Lillard both have the potential to be far better than Lowry in the long run.

 

[CitySushi]

I'd probably throw Kyle Lowry in there over Irving and Lillard, with the knowledge that Irving and Lillard both have the potential to be far better than Lowry in the long run.

There is just something about Lowry that I don't value him on nearly the same spectrum as the other guys. Personally I would take Mike Conley any day of the week over Lowry, but maybe that's just me.

 

[WiggyRuss]

There is just something about Lowry that I don't value him on nearly the same spectrum as the other guys. Personally I would take Mike Conley any day of the week over Lowry, but maybe that's just me.

i really like Conley too-

I think the Griz could compete for a very high seed in the West this year- maybe even #2...

Lowry has a tendency to go MIA at times.

 

[CitySushi]

i really like Conley too-

I think the Griz could compete for a very high seed in the West this year- maybe even #2...

Lowry has a tendency to go MIA at times.

With the change of coach and also change in their offensive philosophies, I could see a breakout year for Conley. Previously he's been tasked with mostly bringing the ball up, then being a last resort option after the offense sputters. Their new coaching staff has said they're going to give him more freedom with the ball. Still going to be tough for him to get an allstar spot though in a conference that has Curry, CP3, Russ, and Dame.

 

[HurricaneDij39]

i really like Conley too-

I think the Griz could compete for a very high seed in the West this year- maybe even #2...

Lowry has a tendency to go MIA at times.

Uuugh...That's one thing you and I greatly disagree on, @WiggyRuss ...I think the Grizz are old and ordinary and will barely squeak into the playoffs in the difficult west.

 

[tlance]

well just look at the results. they speak for themselves.

do they?

I would argue Kyrie is not a point guard.

Curry is not a pure point guard, but he isn't ball dominant either. As Mecca pointed out, Draymond does a lot of their playmaking, much like LeBron does in Cleveland.

As for other recent title winning clubs?

Tony Parker can score, but he is also a fantastic facilitator. Most of offense comes off of ball movement, not simply Parker going ISO.

Chalmers barely touched the ball in Miami.

Jason Kidd was the ultimate PG in Dallas, even as an over the hill vet.

Derek Fisher was more in the Mario Chalmers role of initiate the offense and get out of the way.

Rondo was definitely a pass first guy, especially during his early Boston years when they were good.

I may have missed somebody, but that pretty much takes us through the last 10 years. I don't see many top of the league PGs on this list, but I don't see many ball dominate ones either. Irving is really the only one if you count him as a PG.

 

[CitySushi]

Uuugh...That's one thing you and I greatly disagree on, @WiggyRuss ...I think the Grizz are old and ordinary and will barely squeak into the playoffs in the difficult west.

If Gasol and Randolph are healthy, they can pose a real threat this year. If they're able to incorporate more on their offense, without losing too much on defense I see them as a top 4 team this year. I have the Warriors, Spurs, Clippers and Grizzlies as the top 4 teams. OKC loses a lot and I think they'll drop to a 6-7 seed. Then you have a bunch of teams that will be competing for those last few playoff spots including the Mavs, Blazers, Jazz, Rockets, and potentially the Timberwolves.

The Grizzlies also added Parsons who will help them immensely on the perimeter.

 

[WiggyRuss]

do they?

I would argue Kyrie is not a point guard.

Curry is not a pure point guard, but he isn't ball dominant either. As Mecca pointed out, Draymond does a lot of their playmaking, much like LeBron does in Cleveland.

As for other recent title winning clubs?

Tony Parker can score, but he is also a fantastic facilitator. Most of offense comes off of ball movement, not simply Parker going ISO.

Chalmers barely touched the ball in Miami.

Jason Kidd was the ultimate PG in Dallas, even as an over the hill vet.

Derek Fisher was more in the Mario Chalmers role of initiate the offense and get out of the way.

Rondo was definitely a pass first guy, especially during his early Boston years when they were good.

I may have missed somebody, but that pretty much takes us through the last 10 years. I don't see many top of the league PGs on this list, but I don't see many ball dominate ones either. Irving is really the only one if you count him as a PG.

think of all those titles team and realize how big of a fail your argument is

Kyrie, Curry, LeBron, Chalmers, Fisher---- the only "pure" point guard would have been a Jkidd that was FAR passed his prime.

it is a TOTALLY antiquated way of looking at the league- which is not surprsiing coming from an old timer such as yourself- but ya gotta get with it man.

The point guard that dribbled it up and initiated offense and threw it to a big in the post and didnt shoot much is dead and gone and never fucking coming back. Its a dying breed.

you absolutely need NOTHINg like a pure point guard to win in the NBA- in fact it is probably a bad idea from the last decade+ of data from the NBA shows us.

 

[tlance]

think of all those titles team and realize how big of a fail your argument is

Kyrie, Curry, LeBron, Chalmers, Fisher---- the only "pure" point guard would have been a Jkidd that was FAR passed his prime.

it is a TOTALLY antiquated way of looking at the league- which is not surprsiing coming from an old timer such as yourself- but ya gotta get with it man.

The point guard that dribbled it up and initiated offense and threw it to a big in the post and didnt shoot much is dead and gone and never fucking coming back. Its a dying breed.

you absolutely need NOTHINg like a pure point guard to win in the NBA- in fact it is probably a bad idea from the last decade+ of data from the NBA shows us.

You are putting words in my mouth. Typical. Calling me an old timer? LOL. That is a first.

I am saying you don't want a ball dominant PG. That is all. Kyrie is the only ball dominant PG in the group, and LeBron plays more point that Kyrie does.

There is no set type of PG you need, but I would argue that whatevet you do have, it better not be a ball dominator. They have had pretty poor track records. In fact, go back as far as you want. I challenge you to find the last ball dominant, scoring PG to win a title before Kyrie. I honestly can't think of a single one. But, I can think of plenty of teams who had mediocre PGs.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

think of all those titles team and realize how big of a fail your argument is

Kyrie, Curry, LeBron, Chalmers, Fisher---- the only "pure" point guard would have been a Jkidd that was FAR passed his prime.

it is a TOTALLY antiquated way of looking at the league- which is not surprsiing coming from an old timer such as yourself- but ya gotta get with it man.

The point guard that dribbled it up and initiated offense and threw it to a big in the post and didnt shoot much is dead and gone and never fucking coming back. Its a dying breed.

you absolutely need NOTHINg like a pure point guard to win in the NBA- in fact it is probably a bad idea from the last decade+ of data from the NBA shows us.

So now you are claiming there is no room in the game for centers or point guards?
Please stop..

 

[tlance]

By the way, your idea of a pure PG is much different than mine. I don't want a guy to dribble the ball up and pass to the post. Hell, I don't even want a post.

I do want a PG who can push the pace, defend, create scoring chances for others and facilitate ball movement.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

You are putting words in my mouth. Typical. Calling me an old timer? LOL. That is a first.

I am saying you don't want a ball dominant PG. That is all. Kyrie is the only ball dominant PG in the group, and LeBron plays more point that Kyrie does.

There is no set type of PG you need, but I would argue that whatevet you do have, it better not be a ball dominator. They have had pretty poor track records. In fact, go back as far as you want. I challenge you to find the last ball dominant, scoring PG to win a title before Kyrie. I honestly can't think of a single one. But, I can think of plenty of teams who had mediocre PGs.

Kyrie and the rest of the Cavs won a title because of LeBron.
We've all seen Kyries resume without James on the roster.

 

[tlance]

So now you are claiming there is no room in the game for centers or point guards?
Please stop..

Nah, I think he legitimately views Kyrie as the ideal PG. I think he is a good 2, but the exact opposite of what you want as a PG.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

By the way, your idea of a pure PG is much different than mine. I don't want a guy to dribble the ball up and pass to the post. Hell, I don't even want a post.

I do want a PG who can push the pace, defend, create scoring chances for others and facilitate ball movement.

Isn't the object to be able to have court vision and then pass to whoever has the best chance to get the best % shot off?