Kessel Traded to Pittsburgh

[mattola]

Leafs were sick and tired of Phil Kessel | Simmons | Toronto Maple Leafs | Sport

What a shocker, Steve Simmons with another rip job!

Wow that was some attack on Kessel.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Wow that was some attack on Kessel.

A clueless one. I love when guys with zero access try to act like they know what goes on in the room. He's slamming Kessel's demeanor etc. - literally everybody he's played with in Toronto has said the guy's a buzz in the room. He's slamming Kessel's fan interaction - having personally interacted with him while shitfaced, the guy may have been quiet but he was friendly as he could probably be and that's without delving into some of the stories of him working hockey camps and other events. Heard from a friend who's kid was at one of those camps that he hung out for a couple hours signing anything and everything he was given and took individual pictures with anybody who asked.

Kessel might have issues on the ice, he may need to focus on his fitness especially as he ages, but I think all of the character shots are 100% bullshit. Not something Pens fans need to worry about at all.

 

[mattola]

A clueless one. I love when guys with zero access try to act like they know what goes on in the room. He's slamming Kessel's demeanor etc. - literally everybody he's played with in Toronto has said the guy's a buzz in the room. He's slamming Kessel's fan interaction - having personally interacted with him while shitfaced, the guy may have been quiet but he was friendly as he could probably be and that's without delving into some of the stories of him working hockey camps and other events. Heard from a friend who's kid was at one of those camps that he hung out for a couple hours signing anything and everything he was given and took individual pictures with anybody who asked.

Kessel might have issues on the ice, he may need to focus on his fitness especially as he ages, but I think all of the character shots are 100% bullshit. Not something Pens fans need to worry about at all.

I agree. I also think Kessel will be a far different player under Crosby and Malkin. Mario will also help a lot.

I've not gone through this whole thread are you happy with the return for Kessel?

 

[KennyBanyeah]

LOL...bennet and the midget on the 4th line?! Ugggg...So put Biggs on the 3rd line with Sutter Move Kunitz...I can't see Sheary being anything special

If Biggs is on your AHL 3rd line, you're in trouble.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I agree. I also think Kessel will be a far different player under Crosby and Malkin. Mario will also help a lot.

I've not gone through this whole thread are you happy with the return for Kessel?

In short, no but I understand why they did it. Thought for sure a trade with the Pens would revolve around Pouliot, but Pens are assuming a lot of years and that always carries a risk.

Dragon is much more upset.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Dragon: I am sorry you dont like the deal. I know you to be a strong supporter of the Leafs. But this really is a good deal. As good as the Leafs were going to get, and there is a strong possibility it is better than the deal the Leafs would get next year at the trade deadline.

Trading Phil is a gamble, sure. Could you always do better, maybe, maybe not. Market value is what teams are willing to pay, not what we want them to pay. And Phil, by his play last year, reduced that value. Dont hate on the team, hate the playa.

Would Phil have had a better season under Babcock? Definitely. But as BBB points out, there is also a very likely scenario that Phil continues that funk/pout/lack of effort he showed from Jan 1. What does the team then have? A guy who had a couple of good years, but none in the past 15 months, who is arguably lazy and doesnt take his profession seriously, is underproducing and is making 8 mil. What is the market value for that next Feb?

IMO, Phil showed his true colours this year. I dont think the team could trust him to man up and perform like the elite professional he could be. Also, you can be darn sure that Babcock signed off on this. I am confident that Babs had already spoken to Phil, and had his own warning signs.

This had the potential to be another sideshow distraction, and the team chose to deal with it this way. Honestly, I cant fault them for it.

Did they get enough? I still say they picked up 2 first round picks, and the rest is insignificant (with apologies to the Harrington family). You may be right that Kapanen is a second line winger. OK, maybe so, but isnt that the norm for late first round picks? And yes, the 2016 or 2017 pick will also be towards the bottom of the first round. OK. You say they "only moved up 30 spots". Think about it though. Is it worth nothing to you to move from #50 to #20? Are you saying a late second rounder is more or less equal to a late first rounder to you? I know you know better.

As others said, the Leafs biggest problem was there was only one real interested trade partner. Sounds like they tried to get Calgary and Nashville and maybe others interested, but it wasnt happening.

And lets not forget the Cap situation. What if the Canadian dollar continues to drop as the "experts" are saying? What if the Cap in future seasons is no higher, or even lower? Even if Phil performs at his peak level, the good teams generally dont have cap space to take on, so wont be able to look at adding Phil in February. So the offers wont be that good in any event.

To summarize, the Leafs were in a crap position. They had a very well paid player who grossly underperformed last year, and has shown nothing but disdain for being a professional. There was a very real risk that Phil would mail it in again in 2015-16 and further depreciate in value. Then everyone would be crapping on them for not trading him "last July".

The only thing I would have liked to see in the deal was to take on a bad PIT contract (which might help them with CAP issues) and get more in return.

I have no problem with the trade. But then again, I am by nature "a bird in the hand" kinda guy.

You sound like a Toronto sports journalist.

If Phil Kessel were a free agent right now and willing to sign for $6.75 million a year, how long do you think it would take for him to be signed by someone?

 

[DragonfromTO]

Maybe this article is crap. But it is one reporter's insight into the sideshow that was Phil. I do not think Rosie DiManno knows much about hockey (and she doesnt pretend to, heck I first remember her covering the Paul Bernardo trial) but her slant is on "the room". She makes the compelling argument that Phil had to go, and I agree.

Phil Kessel simply didnt mesh with Shanahans Leafs: DiManno | Toronto Star

PIT fans probably should not read it, you might get depressed.

"And thats all I have to say about that"

There's no "maybe" about it.

Can you tell me what you think gives Rosie DiManno insight into "the room"?

I mean holy fuck man, you're citing Rosie DiManno. If I were looking for a good opinion on any subject I wouldn't go to Rosie if she was the last literate person on earth, I'd just tell Mongo to bang his thoughts out on the rocks or something.

The media has been unfairly pushing this guy out the door for years. Now that he's gone, what do you expect them to say? That the move to get rid of him was a bad one? This article was already written a while ago and just waiting for the moment to be published, and when Kessel is a PPG player next year the article talking about how he was a changed man and a different player after the trade woke him up and criticizing the front office will just be taken off of the hot take pile and thrown onto the front page of the Sports section.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I like Harrington, but I have no idea how this defence works now - everybody is a lefty!

If they do go with an all-lefty defensive corps, Harrington may eventually be an excellent second-pair partner for Dion.

Can I ask why?

I would have rather let the Pens keep Harrington and not made so many concessions (taking on salary for 7 years, sending back a 2nd rounder, lottery protecting the 1st rounder etc. ... seriously, did the Leafs' FO just bend over and do whatever the Penguins wanted?)

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Can I ask why?

I would have rather let the Pens keep Harrington and not made so many concessions (taking on salary for 7 years, sending back a 2nd rounder, lottery protecting the 1st rounder etc. ... seriously, did the Leafs' FO just bend over and do whatever the Penguins wanted?)

Seems like he can be a second pair d-man. Top 4 and a top 6 plus whoever they get with the first rounder (hopefully another top 4 or 6) is decent enough return. If Spaling plays well enough he should fetch a second rounder at the deadline. If they can move Bozak for a second that'll give them 5 picks in the first two rounds next draft. That's what this is all supposed to be about, after all, right?

The lottery protection and the salary doesn't sit well with me either but cost of doing business I guess.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Seems like he can be a second pair d-man. Top 4 and a top 6 plus whoever they get with the first rounder (hopefully another top 4 or 6) is decent enough return. If Spaling plays well enough he should fetch a second rounder at the deadline. If they can move Bozak for a second that'll give them 5 picks in the first two rounds next draft. That's what this is all supposed to be about, after all, right?

The lottery protection and the salary doesn't sit well with me either but cost of doing business I guess.

What about his resume makes it seem like he can be a second pair defenseman at the NHL level? Can you name a single second pair NHL defenseman who maxed out at 26 points in junior (on a stacked London Knights team with tons of talent where you could top 30 points just by letting pucks bounce off of you) ? Even one? Hell, Luke Schenn had more than 26 points in junior when he was two years younger than Harrington was and on a shitty team.


It's also not just "what they get with the first rounder" though, it's not a naked pick. It's "what they get with the first rounder minus what they would have gotten with the second rounder"

How are they going to move Bozak for a 2nd? I hope you're at least suggesting that this will happen before the season starts, because if Bozak starts the season without Phil carrying him it's going to become obvious what he actually is and that he's not worth a 2nd rounder.

I see Spaling being way more likely to return a 4th rounder than a 2nd rounder.

The salary retention and the lottery protection isn't "the cost of doing business". It's a team saying "ok, now that we've got a deal let's see how much we can twist this knife"

 

[BGDave]

There's no "maybe" about it.

Can you tell me what you think gives Rosie DiManno insight into "the room"?

I mean holy fuck man, you're citing Rosie DiManno. If I were looking for a good opinion on any subject I wouldn't go to Rosie if she was the last literate person on earth, I'd just tell Mongo to bang his thoughts out on the rocks or something.

The media has been unfairly pushing this guy out the door for years. Now that he's gone, what do you expect them to say? That the move to get rid of him was a bad one? This article was already written a while ago and just waiting for the moment to be published, and when Kessel is a PPG player next year the article talking about how he was a changed man and a different player after the trade woke him up and criticizing the front office will just be taken off of the hot take pile and thrown onto the front page of the Sports section.

A Toronto sportswriter? Good one

I cant really tell if you are more upset about (a) Phil being gone, or (b) the package they received in return. Or both?

 

[DragonfromTO]

A Toronto sportswriter? Good one

I cant really tell if you are more upset about (a) Phil being gone, or (b) the package they received in return. Or both?

My biggest concern is actually neither of those things. There has been a lot of talk from the executive about "process". I'm not as scared about the package as I am about what the package seems to suggest about the process.

In particular, all of the "throw-ins" (the salary retention, paying the $4 million that was structured as a bonus on top of that, throwing in the 2nd rounder, throwing in Erixon) smell to me like Pittsburgh saying "alright we've got a deal we're comfortable with here, let's see what else we can squeeze out of them". It's a classic sales technique.

 

[BGDave]

My biggest concern is actually neither of those things. There has been a lot of talk from the executive about "process". I'm not as scared about the package as I am about what the package seems to suggest about the process.

In particular, all of the "throw-ins" (the salary retention, paying the $4 million that was structured as a bonus on top of that, throwing in the 2nd rounder, throwing in Erixon) smell to me like Pittsburgh saying "alright we've got a deal we're comfortable with here, let's see what else we can squeeze out of them". It's a classic sales technique.

Gotcha. I dont think anyone can deny that Leaf brass made up there mind to unload Phil "at any price". This could be a situation where the lack of a real, experienced GM bit them. OK, did bite them.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

What about his resume makes it seem like he can be a second pair defenseman at the NHL level? Can you name a single second pair NHL defenseman who maxed out at 26 points in junior (on a stacked London Knights team with tons of talent where you could top 30 points just by letting pucks bounce off of you) ? Even one? Hell, Luke Schenn had more than 26 points in junior when he was two years younger than Harrington was and on a shitty team.


It's also not just "what they get with the first rounder" though, it's not a naked pick. It's "what they get with the first rounder minus what they would have gotten with the second rounder"

How are they going to move Bozak for a 2nd? I hope you're at least suggesting that this will happen before the season starts, because if Bozak starts the season without Phil carrying him it's going to become obvious what he actually is and that he's not worth a 2nd rounder.

I see Spaling being way more likely to return a 4th rounder than a 2nd rounder.

The salary retention and the lottery protection isn't "the cost of doing business". It's a team saying "ok, now that we've got a deal let's see how much we can twist this knife"

1) 24 AHL points at age 20, 1 pt fewer than Duncan Keith had at the same age. I obviously have never seen the guy play but I've read he's got a good two-way game. I dont think believing he's capable of being a second pair guy is unreasonable.

2) No, it is "what they get with the first rounder" because that's what they have and 1st is better than 2nd. Sure, I think it's fucked that they gave them back their 2nd but it is what it is and if they draft a top six guy with that pick are you still going to complain about the second rounder?

3) I'm just parroting what reports were saying around the draft, that they wanted a 2nd rounder for him. Probably lost AZ as a landing spot with Vermette re-signing but given that Soderberg got $4.8 mil a year someone will look at Bozak as a good deal.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

My biggest concern is actually neither of those things. There has been a lot of talk from the executive about "process". I'm not as scared about the package as I am about what the package seems to suggest about the process.

In particular, all of the "throw-ins" (the salary retention, paying the $4 million that was structured as a bonus on top of that, throwing in the 2nd rounder, throwing in Erixon) smell to me like Pittsburgh saying "alright we've got a deal we're comfortable with here, let's see what else we can squeeze out of them". It's a classic sales technique.

Or you can look at it as the Leafs are getting younger and aren't going to move any pieces for magic beans like Burke did, or hand out dumb as fuck contracts like Burke and Nonis did.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Or you can look at it as the Leafs are getting younger and aren't going to move any pieces for magic beans like Burke did, or hand out dumb as fuck contracts like Burke and Nonis did.

What does this have to do with my point about making concessions on things that shouldn't have been deal-breakers for Pittsburgh (and/or falling for "if you don't take this offer right now it's gonna be gone!", which is pretty much the oldest trick in sales).

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

What does this have to do with my point about making concessions on things that shouldn't have been deal-breakers for Pittsburgh (and/or falling for "if you don't take this offer right now it's gonna be gone!", which is pretty much the oldest trick in sales).

I'm not going to judge a trade on the negotiating tactics used to make the deal lol

 

[BGDave]

I think we can all agree that the big winner of the Kessel trade is ....

Columbus.

Logic:

PIT wanted a scorer. Kessel and Sharp probably at the top of the list. CHI realizes that Kessel will be dumped, leaving no market for Sharp. CHI then has to do something cap-wise and unloads Saad to Columbus.

If the Leafs are serious about keeping Kessel, then CHI looks to move Sharp to PIT, and not Saad to Columbus.

 

[forty_three]

I think we can all agree that the big winner of the Kessel trade is ....

Columbus.

Logic:

PIT wanted a scorer. Kessel and Sharp probably at the top of the list. CHI realizes that Kessel will be dumped, leaving no market for Sharp. CHI then has to do something cap-wise and unloads Saad to Columbus.

If the Leafs are serious about keeping Kessel, then CHI looks to move Sharp to PIT, and not Saad to Columbus.

Plus I enjoy the fact that playing Columbus is like wiping your ass with sandpaper and broken glass and our biggest rivals got a guy who won't backcheck or go into corners to win pucks In the process, getting a defenseman who couldn't hit his way out of a bag of cotton candy.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I'm not going to judge a trade on the negotiating tactics used to make the deal lol

I was really evaluating the front office though, not the trade. Good process leads to good results, which is important because there's a lot more "process" that needs to happen.