Is Westbrook the most gifted guard in NBA history ?..

[BallsOfFurry]

Forgot to mention Wilt (I know, not a guard). He was an athletic freak too, ran track for pete's sake at that height. They gave him shit for not passing enough so he went out and led the league in assists the next year just because.

The frontcourt is a whole other conversation.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Sure they could.

MJ played point for a stretch of 10 games under Doug Collins in the 80s and recorded 7 triple doubles. Magic had pretty sick lines for full seasons, but never played on a team so devoid of offensive talent.

If Magic or MJ had TRIED to average a triple double, they probably could have. But, it would not have been in the best interest of their teams.

Westbrook might be the most physically gifted guard I have ever seen, but he isn't the best.

It's hard to compare Magic's situation where he had all stars all around him to Westbrook who doesn't have a future HOF player on his team, other than himself. He is averaging 10+ assist none the less. His passing is very underrated in my opinion, he is now as good as any player as a pure passer. Trying to picture Westbrook running an offense with the players Magic had is a challenge to the senses. With his physical gifts he could probably have his choice of 3 open all stars on many possessions, not including himself.

 

[wildturkey]

No. It's not even all that close. The fact that James Harden is within striking distance of the same thing Westbrook is doing despite the fact that Harden doesn't actively seek out rebounds the way Westbrook does basically renders the discussion mute. It's a great accomplishment, he should win the MVP, but its also circumstantial

 

[BallsOfFurry]

No. It's not even all that close. The fact that James Harden is within striking distance of the same thing Westbrook is doing despite the fact that Harden doesn't actively seek out rebounds the way Westbrook does basically renders the discussion mute. It's a great accomplishment, he should win the MVP, but its also circumstantial

It takes great work ethic and endurance to play all 3 Triple-D aspects like Westbrook does, it's not just circumstantial. He goes all out more consistently than any player. Another thing, Westbrook has HANDS DOWN the best dynamic balance of any player at any position to play the game in the modern era. It's just f-ing insane how he keeps his balance through every sort of move and combination of moves. Plays where even Jordan would finish off balance Westbrook finishes like a cat with his feet perfectly in place to either run or walk away. It's something I learned to notice judging martial arts matches where a contestant had to finish a point in a position where he could continue defending himself for a punch or kick to count for a point. Honestly, I can't say who is second best in this area,he's in a class by himself.

This guy could be truly great at several sports.

 

[wildturkey]

It takes great work ethic and endurance to play all 3 Triple-D aspects like Westbrook does, it's not just circumstantial. He goes all out more consistently than any player. Another thing, Westbrooks has HANDS DOWN the best dynamic balance of any player at any position to play the game in the modern era. It's just f-ing insane how he keeps his balance through every sort of moves. Plays where even Jordan would finish off balance Westbrook finishes like a cat with his feet perfectly in place to either run or walk away. It's something I learned to notice judging martial arts matches where a contestant had to finish a point in a position where he could continue defending himself for a punch or kick to count for a point. Honestly, I can't say who is second best in this area,he's in a class by himself.

Westbrook is essentially the exact same player he was 3 years ago as he is today. The only difference is his workload. It's circumstantial

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Westbrook is essentially the exact same player he was 3 years ago as he is today. The only difference is his workload. It's circumstantial

I disagree, he is more advanced in his understanding of the position, that makes him more efficient and faster.

 

[jon2tanman]

Yes, damn good defense.
It's far better overall now than in the great period in the 1980s when The Lakers and Celtics ruled.
The low post clubbing isn't allowed now, but that wasn't really a skill in my opinion.

The great laker teams where never known for good defense, however todays watered down league is horrid at playing D.

 

[tlance]

It's hard to compare Magic's situation where he had all stars all around him to Westbrook who doesn't have a future HOF player on his team, other than himself. He is averaging 10+ assist none the less. His passing is very underrated in my opinion, he is now as good as any player as a pure passer. Trying to picture Westbrook running an offense with the players Magic had is a challenge to the senses. With his physical gifts he could probably have his choice of 3 open all stars on many possessions, not including himself.

No.

He is not a pure passer at all. His assist to TO ratio is terrible and many of his passes are off target. There are many players in the league who are better passers, Russ just has more assist opportunities than anybody because he always has the ball and defenses collapse on him.

Chris Paul is a pure passer. Steve Nash was a pure passer. Russ is about volume.

 

[MHSL82]

Fills stat sheets? Magic didn't have teammates do this:

 

[BallsOfFurry]

The great laker teams where never known for good defense, however todays watered down league is horrid at playing D.

There are some great defensive teams today, and some bad ones.
There is more consistent effort on defense now than in the pre-Bad Boys 80s though. That Detroit team made playing defense cool again.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

There are some great defensive teams today, and some bad ones.
There is more consistent effort on defense now than in the pre-Bad Boys 80s though. That Detroit team made playing defense cool again.

Then those amazing Bulls teams had 3 of the all time great on ball defenders in MJ, Pippin and The freak. The Pistons forced The bulls to put that type of team together.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Fills stat sheets? Magic didn't have teammates do this:

That is a truly weak point. A rebound is a rebound. He goes to his strengths, that is smart basketball. He'd be nuts to try to mix it up with centers when he has the amazing quickness, leaping ability and overall athleticism to beat them to a spot and the unreal hands to snatch the ball.

 

[mrwallace2ku]

"the BIG O" approves of this thread...

 

[BallsOfFurry]

No.

He is not a pure passer at all. His assist to TO ratio is terrible and many of his passes are off target. There are many players in the league who are better passers, Russ just has more assist opportunities than anybody because he always has the ball and defenses collapse on him.

Chris Paul is a pure passer. Steve Nash was a pure passer. Russ is about volume.

He is a great passer, but I agree, Paul is the best conventional PG in the league now.
Nobody would choose Paul over Westbrook though.
It's impossible to make a viable comparison with T-O to assist ratios though. Westbrook plays at a far faster pace and his game is extremely daring, which leads to his unmatched combined contributions to his team.

 

[trojanfan12]

Westbrook might be the most physically gifted guard I have ever seen, but he isn't the best.

^^^THIS^^^

/thread

 

[trojanfan12]

If Magic or MJ had TRIED to average a triple double, they probably could have. But, it would not have been in the best interest of their teams.

I agree. I think it was Larry Bird who said..."I could have averaged 40 if I wanted to, but I thought the point was to win games."

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I agree. I think it was Larry Bird who said..."I could have averaged 40 if I wanted to, but I thought the point was to win games."

Bird, Magic and MJ had all time great players surrounding them. Doing what he is with out a single teammate with a remote shot at being a HOFer is a huge point in Westbrook's favor when evaluating his accomplishments to date. None of those other players could be focused on by defenses like Westbrook is.

 

[Ickey Shuffle]

Not sure about most gifted. If you said the most explosive guard ever, I might agree with you.

 

[trojanfan12]

Bird, Magic and MJ had all time great players surrounding them. Doing what he is with out a single teammate with a remote shot at being a HOFer is a huge point in Westbrook's favor when evaluating his accomplishments to date. None of those other players could be focused on by defenses like Westbrook is.

I'm a big fan of Westbrook and what he's doing. Unlike some who think he's a stat stuffer, I think he's doing exactly what the Thunder need him to do to win.

Been watching the NBA since 1970 and he's the most athletically gifted guard I've ever seen. But he's not the best guard I've ever seen.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

When you look at advanced stats Westbrook shines.
He has the all time highest usage rate of any player in history this season with 41%.
He has the 3rd highest value over replacement at 11.52 behind only MJ in 87/88 at 11.81 and Lebron in 08/09 at 11.57. Harden's value over replacement is just 8.45.
Defense is the most telling. The Thunder gives up 2.5 fewer pts per 100 possessions with Westbrook on the floor vs on the bench while Houston give up an embarrassing 4.8 more pts per 100 possessions with Harden ON THE FLOOR than when he's on the bench, he's a huge defensive liability.
There are more advanced stats, all favor Westbrook.