Is there anything worse than being a Suns fan?

[tlance]

Who has reigned in Russ? Nobody to date. His shot attempts per game have varied from 17.0 to 24 since he really established himself in '10/'11, averaging 18.8 with Durant and 20.7 since he left (including 19.7 this season). His rebounds and assists are career highs this year, but that has little to do with his own shot attempts decreasing much. His scoring is down mostly due to poor shooting percentages, not reigning himself in.

That is the point.

Brooks had a chance to do it when Russ was still young and less established. He didn't.

Now it is way too late unless Russ chooses to reign himself in.

 

[tlance]

Didn't they last win in 85? Not exactly 35, but damn close.

If it was rigged would think they could have given top picks to someone besides Seattle and Portland in the Oden/Durant draft and NO for Davis.

And they owe us one for the Bennett debacle.

I don't think it is rigged.

But Davis to NO was easily the league's greatest reason to rig a lottery since Ewing to the Knicks.

Let's review:

-NO owner wants out, has no buyer so the league takes over ownership temporarily
-NBA league office trying to sell franchise
-CP3 asks to be traded
-GM Demps (yes, the same guy) agrees to deal CP3 to the Lakers for a mediocre collection of veteran talent not very attractive to a potential buyer
-Commisioner Stern vetoes trade
-NO trades CP3 for Eric Gordon + tankworthy package
-NO team sold to Benson family
-NO wins draft lottery-

Was this a coincidence? Or a promise to the future buyer?

 

[dtgold88]

I don't think it is rigged.

But Davis to NO was easily the league's greatest reason to rig a lottery since Ewing to the Knicks.

Let's review:

-NO owner wants out, has no buyer so the league takes over ownership temporarily
-NBA league office trying to sell franchise
-CP3 asks to be traded
-GM Demps (yes, the same guy) agrees to deal CP3 to the Lakers for a mediocre collection of veteran talent not very attractive to a potential buyer
-Commisioner Stern vetoes trade
-NO trades CP3 for Eric Gordon + tankworthy package
-NO team sold to Benson family
-NO wins draft lottery-

Was this a coincidence? Or a promise to the future buyer?

Just thinking if they were gonna rig it they'd do it for a "blueblood" in a top market. Not what appears to be an inept team at the time.

But I agree IF they were to do it, those reasons are as sound as any.

My reasoning they don't do it is they do have an accounting firm watching, right? sure NBA chooses them, but if just one guy gets pissed later and spills the beans?

 

[tlance]

Just thinking if they were gonna rig it they'd do it for a "blueblood" in a top market. Not what appears to be an inept team at the time.

But I agree IF they were to do it, those reasons are as sound as any.

My reasoning they don't do it is they do have an accounting firm watching, right? sure NBA chooses them, but if just one guy gets pissed later and spills the beans?

Yep. Way too much to lose by rigging it. Way too much.

Like Stern and Silver would have to kill people off to keep it quiet.

 

[dtgold88]

Yep. Way too much to lose by rigging it. Way too much.

Like Stern and Silver would have to kill people off to keep it quiet.

They could have Olivia Pope on retainer.

 

[shopson67]

There was no one close to being worthy of a #1 pick that year. some of the guys you mentioned were taken well beyond the top 10 and they were gonna take them at 1?

Pick was awful, but I get it. It's great you can use hindsight, but the real options at the time were probably Porter, McClemore or maybe Oladipo if not Bennett. Pretty sure they were locking in on Lebron so Porter wouldn't make a lot of sense. They had Kyrie and Waiters so I get passing on Oladipo and McClemore has been nothing special. They figured take the guy with the most upside.....and he was moved in the Love deal.

Should Philly lose their rights to pick #1 again after taking Fultz and passing on Tatum?

Never mind I said that tongue-in-cheek.

That Bennett pick was completely out of left field. Noel was the pick before his injury, and probably should still have been. If not, Oladipo.

Waiters was another terrible pick, and I'm a Syracuse fan. He had no business being drafted that early; he was only an average NBA prospect.

 

[dtgold88]

That Bennett pick was completely out of left field. Noel was the pick before his injury, and probably should still have been. If not, Oladipo.

Waiters was another terrible pick, and I'm a Syracuse fan. He had no business being drafted that early; he was only an average NBA prospect.

You get NBA teams are really the league who follows the rankings from the "experts"? Rarely stray a few spots from where they are projected? I agree Bennett did not follow form there, but if ever they were gonna take a chance I could understand. No one else jumped out as the right fit for them considering the plan was get Lebron and at the time they had Kyrie and Waiters. Noel was hurt and he'd also be considered a bust (though not on Bennett bust level).

Projections I've seen had Waiters going in the 5-7 range, so not far off from 4. I'd have preferred Barnes at the time (and he appears to have been the better choice). Other options thought in that range were Robinson, who was a bust, and Lillard who no team who had just taken Kyrie would have taken.

 

[shopson67]

You get NBA teams are really the league who follows the rankings from the "experts"? Rarely stray a few spots from where they are projected? I agree Bennett did not follow form there, but if ever they were gonna take a chance I could understand. No one else jumped out as the right fit for them considering the plan was get Lebron and at the time they had Kyrie and Waiters. Noel was hurt and he'd also be considered a bust (though not on Bennett bust level).

Projections I've seen had Waiters going in the 5-7 range, so not far off from 4. I'd have preferred Barnes at the time (and he appears to have been the better choice). Other options thought in that range were Robinson, who was a bust, and Lillard who no team who had just taken Kyrie would have taken.

I saw the majority of Waiters' college games. He wasn't even starting for the Orange his final year. Clearly whomever's evaluation got him drafted that high was a bit off, as he hasn't amounted to much. I was hopeful that the scouts saw something I didn't, but it was a mirage. Obviously in retrospect Lillard is the obvious pick in terms of talent level, but I knew little of him, coming from Weber State. The pick probably would've been Robinson, Barnes, or Drummond based on who I had seen play.

Noel was injured, but he was the clear #1 pick prior to that. He had his moments early on, but faded from favor and was traded and lost in the shuffle. He has re-emerged to some degree this year with the Thunder.

 

[dtgold88]

I saw the majority of Waiters' college games. He wasn't even starting for the Orange his final year. Clearly whomever's evaluation got him drafted that high was a bit off, as he hasn't amounted to much. I was hopeful that the scouts saw something I didn't, but it was a mirage. Obviously in retrospect Lillard is the obvious pick in terms of talent level, but I knew little of him, coming from Weber State. The pick probably would've been Robinson, Barnes, or Drummond based on who I had seen play.

Noel was injured, but he was the clear #1 pick prior to that. He had his moments early on, but faded from favor and was traded and lost in the shuffle. He has re-emerged to some degree this year with the Thunder.

Agree with most of this but try and understand....NBA teams really do follow the mocks and expert ranking. They are afraid of being second guessed. No one was taking Drummond at 4. Most had waiters in the 4-7 range. I did think they'd go Robinson or Barnes when their turn came up, but Robinson has been a huge bust. Barnes has been solid. To be fair, though, so has Waiters lately other than the injuries.

Make no mistake, Noel would have been considered a bust as well. Agree not on Bennett level...but he'd also have been moved in the Love deal.

 

[shopson67]

Agree with most of this but try and understand....NBA teams really do follow the mocks and expert ranking. They are afraid of being second guessed. No one was taking Drummond at 4. Most had waiters in the 4-7 range. I did think they'd go Robinson or Barnes when their turn came up, but Robinson has been a huge bust. Barnes has been solid. To be fair, though, so has Waiters lately other than the injuries.

Make no mistake, Noel would have been considered a bust as well. Agree not on Bennett level...but he'd also have been moved in the Love deal.

I find it odd that you defend the Waiters pick as being conventional wisdom for a team that went off the board and picked Bennett #1.

Top searched mocks from 2012:

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/story...michael-kidd-gilchrist-thomas-robinson-062712 Waiters 12th

2012 NBA Mock Draft: Pick-by-Pick Predictions for Rounds 1 and 2
Waiters 8th

NBA Mock Draft 2012: Ranking the Top 60 Prospects
Waiters 11th

2012 Mock Draft | NBADraft.net Waiters 7th

 

[dtgold88]

I find it odd that you defend the Waiters pick as being conventional wisdom for a team that went off the board and picked Bennett #1.

Top searched mocks from 2012:

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/story...michael-kidd-gilchrist-thomas-robinson-062712 Waiters 12th

2012 NBA Mock Draft: Pick-by-Pick Predictions for Rounds 1 and 2
Waiters 8th

NBA Mock Draft 2012: Ranking the Top 60 Prospects
Waiters 11th

2012 Mock Draft | NBADraft.net Waiters 7th

I defend the Waiters pick because most others listed in these mocks are no better than he is (many are far worse), and a team with Kyrie was not taking Lillard. I said I'd have taken Barnes but it's not like we are talking about missing on some superstar that anyone had going at 4 who they passed on.

we aren't talking Minnesota who took Johnny Flynn and Ricky Rubio and passed on Curry here at the same position.

But I will say I was wrong about the mocks, as I recalled him being mostly in the 5-7 range in the few I remember seeing. Had they taken him 3rd and passed on Beal? I'd have been pissed.

 

[tlance]

You get NBA teams are really the league who follows the rankings from the "experts"? Rarely stray a few spots from where they are projected? I agree Bennett did not follow form there, but if ever they were gonna take a chance I could understand. No one else jumped out as the right fit for them considering the plan was get Lebron and at the time they had Kyrie and Waiters. Noel was hurt and he'd also be considered a bust (though not on Bennett bust level).

Projections I've seen had Waiters going in the 5-7 range, so not far off from 4. I'd have preferred Barnes at the time (and he appears to have been the better choice). Other options thought in that range were Robinson, who was a bust, and Lillard who no team who had just taken Kyrie would have taken.

You are saying that back in 2013 the Cavs plan was to get LeBron?

I don't know what people in Cleveland thought of that, but I do know the assumtion nationally was that he would stick with Miami coming off their 2nd straight title. Even if Cleveland really thought LBJ would be a free agent in 2014, it could not have been more than a pipe dream to think LeBron would forgive the letter and resign with a rebuilding squad.

It took a lot of dominos falling just right for the Cavs to get LeBron back, and I doubt Cleveland was assuming that would even be a possibilty the summer before.

 

[dtgold88]

You are saying that back in 2013 the Cavs plan was to get LeBron?

I don't know what people in Cleveland thought of that, but I do know the assumtion nationally was that he would stick with Miami coming off their 2nd straight title. Even if Cleveland really thought LBJ would be a free agent in 2014, it could not have been more than a pipe dream to think LeBron would forgive the letter and resign with a rebuilding squad.

It took a lot of dominos falling just right for the Cavs to get LeBron back, and I doubt Cleveland was assuming that would even be a possibilty the summer before.

You would be wrong. I'd say by the end of 2012 season, even, many were thinking it was a possibility. They were clearing a ton of cap space and accruing more 1st rounders. Was looking like Kyrie could be every bit the player Wade would be at that time. Honestly, don't recall Bosh's status and when he started having his health issues.

Never mind taking Porter at #1 also would have been considered a bust. Only way not to pick a bust was go Oladipo, and a team with Waiters and Kyrie was not doing that. Bennett was just beyond a bust....though moved in the Love deal.

 

[tlance]

You would be wrong. I'd say by the end of 2012 season, even, many were thinking it was a possibility. They were clearing a ton of cap space and accruing more 1st rounders. Was looking like Kyrie could be every bit the player Wade would be at that time. Honestly, don't recall Bosh's status and when he started having his health issues.

Never mind taking Porter at #1 also would have been considered a bust. Only way not to pick a bust was go Oladipo, and a team with Waiters and Kyrie was not doing that. Bennett was just beyond a bust....though moved in the Love deal.

Uh. Ok.

But saying it is "a possibility", is a lot different from saying it was "their plan". Saying signing LeBron was their plan implies they thought it was more likely than not to happen.

That model of accumulating young talent + freeing up cap space is how just about every small-midmarket team rebuilds in NBA.

And Bosh's health issues didn't start until the year after LeBron left.

 

[dtgold88]

Uh. Ok.

But saying it is "a possibility", is a lot different from saying it was "their plan". Saying signing LeBron was their plan implies they thought it was more likely than not to happen.

That model of accumulating young talent + freeing up cap space is how just about every small-midmarket team rebuilds in NBA.

And Bosh's health issues didn't start until the year after LeBron left.

It's Cleveland. You think they were clearing cap space in hopes a different max level guy would come here?

 

[tlance]

It's Cleveland. You think they were clearing cap space in hopes a different max level guy would come here?

No.

But hoping for and planning on are 2 very different things.

At that stage it sounds more like unsubstantiated hope.

 

[dtgold88]

No.

But hoping for and planning on are 2 very different things.

At that stage it sounds more like unsubstantiated hope.

It's both. The plan was clear space for a max guy. Hope is it would be Lebron, and seems we agree they knew he was the only max level guy they could get so..............

 

[msgkings322]

I defend the Waiters pick because most others listed in these mocks are no better than he is (many are far worse), and a team with Kyrie was not taking Lillard. I said I'd have taken Barnes but it's not like we are talking about missing on some superstar that anyone had going at 4 who they passed on.

we aren't talking Minnesota who took Johnny Flynn and Ricky Rubio and passed on Curry here at the same position.

But I will say I was wrong about the mocks, as I recalled him being mostly in the 5-7 range in the few I remember seeing. Had they taken him 3rd and passed on Beal? I'd have been pissed.

Don't forget Ty Lawson. Minnesota drafted THREE point guards in the Curry draft. None of them were Curry. That's almost as bad as Bowie over Jordan. Portland had Drexler already so they didn't need another 2 guard. Clearly Minnesota thought they needed a PG

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

Building through the draft is still the best way to build a championship team.

Sometimes you whiff. Sometimes you whiff year after year, but eventually you pick correct.
It has always been more effective than free agency.

Look at the last 5 title teams for examples:

Golden State DRAFTED Steph, Klay, and Draymond.
Cleveland DRAFTED Lebron** and Kyrie.
San Antonio DRAFTED Timmy, Kawhi, Manu, and Tony.

Even the free agent driven title teams already had at least one homegrown drafted superstar (Miami, Dallas, Lakers).

 

[lebron23james]

It's both. The plan was clear space for a max guy. Hope is it would be Lebron, and seems we agree they knew he was the only max level guy they could get so..............

Yeah it's basically the same thing the lakers did. Clear cap space, draft young players and hope to sign multiple stars. Problem is the DA lakers did it with an old used up lebron lol