Is Steve Young right?

[vvoland]

i forgot to add that if edwards gets healthy [and builds up the rapport w/ smith], or if we drafted dez bryant, traded down for blackmon, or got a dwayne bowe type receiver, we would(have) definitely developed a lethal deep ball.

 

[imac_21]

i forgot to add that if edwards gets healthy [and builds up the rapport w/ smith], or if we drafted dez bryant, traded down for blackmon, or got a dwayne bowe type receiver, we would(have) definitely developed a lethal deep ball.

I think this is very wrong. Our primary problem is Alex Smith. You can say adding those players would give us the dynamic passing game, but Smith has never shown the ability to be a dynamic passer. Sure, there were the few games in 06 with Bryant where he hit some big passes, but then he blew his shoulder out as well.

An elite WR would help, but there are teams that have dynamic WRs without dynamic passing games (Arizona) and there are teams without eite WRs, or at least WRs that weren't considered elite (Pittsburgh with Big Ben, Wallace, Brown; GB; Torrey Smith in Baltimore).

Then there are the situation like Carolina with Steve Smith. Smith was dynamic in his youth, seemed to lose it the last few years, now with a big armed QB who will make the throw downfield, Steve Smith is one of the most dynamic, and best WRs in the league again.

 

[MHSL82]

i think smith has a ton of room to improve and has just begun to scratch the surface of his ability. i will reserve my final judgement of his talent until he has an offseason under the same OC and HC and a fairly coherent offensive system. since it seems inevitable that he'll be back next year [barring a collapse in the next 5 games], i would encourage most fans to do the same.[/QUOTE]

But that's too long! I want conclusions now! In truth, he's been here long enough to have an educated guess on what he can and cannot do but as I have no effect on the matter, I choose to just let it ride rather than making grand pronouncements on things, especially if they require an oline, receiver, and to some extent system/trust from the coaches. If by then he can't gain the trust from the coaches to extend, I'll call it a major limitation and if everyone's so right, it'll come. The past systems, coaches, and teams were different enough talentwise and efficacy-wise that I wouldn't have expected big plays to come. (Is it possible to be a hindsight pessimist?) However, we should be getting them once Smith earns the trust to throw more deep passes. That may never come and I trust coaches who see all the practices and film to decide that. But I generally dislike people saying that he can't do something like a deep pass or win a game or play clutch. I'd rather say he hasn't done it consistently (because he has done it) and leave it to later to judge on whether he will ever be consistent. Harbaugh doesn't have all decade because he's a competitor. He'll get it done (fix Smith or move on).

 

[vvoland]

I think this is very wrong. Our primary problem is Alex Smith. You can say adding those players would give us the dynamic passing game, but Smith has never shown the ability to be a dynamic passer. Sure, there were the few games in 06 with Bryant where he hit some big passes, but then he blew his shoulder out as well.

An elite WR would help, but there are teams that have dynamic WRs without dynamic passing games (Arizona) and there are teams without eite WRs, or at least WRs that weren't considered elite (Pittsburgh with Big Ben, Wallace, Brown; GB; Torrey Smith in Baltimore).

Then there are the situation like Carolina with Steve Smith. Smith was dynamic in his youth, seemed to lose it the last few years, now with a big armed QB who will make the throw downfield, Steve Smith is one of the most dynamic, and best WRs in the league again.

i think smith, when called upon to do so, has definitely shown the ability to make the deep pass. he doesn't have brady's arm but he used to hit davis multiple times 35 yds down field on a seam route. when the team is behind [as we always used to be but are rarely this year] he does let it loose. the eagles game comes to mind this year. the reason, imo, that davis used to be the only guy smith would throw to downfield is because the two of them had a very good rapport and smith trusted him to a. make the catch or b. fight the DB and make sure there wouldn't be a pick. considering the drops crabs [especially early on], edwards and ginn have had, i don't really blame him for not ripping it early and often. that isn't to say he can't.

also, looking at the 9 sacks in the ravens game, almost all were under 2.5 seconds... not exactly enough time to let routes develop downfield. that's not even taking into account the times he escaped pressures, was hurried, hit, etc..

finally, i don't think anyone would call the ravens a deep ball team. arizona, on the other hand, only has one effective offensive play: throw it to fitz and hope he fights the DB and wins. carolina has a qb with a cannon and for the last few years, delhomme and the kid out of ND [can't believe i'm blanking on the name] couldn't hit the ocean from a boat. steve smith was also battling injuries, if i recall correctly. he's always been one of the deadliest receivers in the league and now has a qb that can let it rip. not having a running game and constantly trailing in games [ariz and car both fit the description] also helps to throw it deep. as for pitt, mike wallace is the underrated version of desean jackson and, imo, a great deep threat. also, big ben is a gambler, not a 'cerebral qb'... actually, not a 'cerebral' anything.

 

[vvoland]

from '09

Alex Smith Highlights - YouTube

0:34 sec

1:50 - 30 yd rope in a tight window [there are multiple examples of this play]

5:13 - perfect corner route

he also underthrew to big plays to crabs but, imo, that wasn't a result of poor arm strength but not having a rapport with crabs while having it w/ davis [whom he always seems to hit in stride]

you know what kills me about that tape? that the screen pass was once our best weapon [says a bit about our other 'weapons'] but is now used... uh.. never? wtf? you gotta keep defenses honest and the RB screen is one of the best ways to do so. with hunter and gore it should be even better this year. instead, its invisible.

 

[imac_21]

i think smith, when called upon to do so, has definitely shown the ability to make the deep pass. he doesn't have brady's arm but he used to hit davis multiple times 35 yds down field on a seam route. when the team is behind [as we always used to be but are rarely this year] he does let it loose. the eagles game comes to mind this year. the reason, imo, that davis used to be the only guy smith would throw to downfield is because the two of them had a very good rapport and smith trusted him to a. make the catch or b. fight the DB and make sure there wouldn't be a pick. considering the drops crabs [especially early on], edwards and ginn have had, i don't really blame him for not ripping it early and often. that isn't to say he can't.

also, looking at the 9 sacks in the ravens game, almost all were under 2.5 seconds... not exactly enough time to let routes develop downfield. that's not even taking into account the times he escaped pressures, was hurried, hit, etc..

finally, i don't think anyone would call the ravens a deep ball team. arizona, on the other hand, only has one effective offensive play: throw it to fitz and hope he fights the DB and wins. carolina has a qb with a cannon and for the last few years, delhomme and the kid out of ND [can't believe i'm blanking on the name] couldn't hit the ocean from a boat. steve smith was also battling injuries, if i recall correctly. he's always been one of the deadliest receivers in the league and now has a qb that can let it rip. not having a running game and constantly trailing in games [ariz and car both fit the description] also helps to throw it deep. as for pitt, mike wallace is the underrated version of desean jackson and, imo, a great deep threat. also, big ben is a gambler, not a 'cerebral qb'... actually, not a 'cerebral' anything.

Alex Smith has shown an ability to throw longer than medium passes between the numbers. That's a distinct difference than stretching the field along the sidelines. We don't know if he can do that, because he's virtually never asked to. Although the TD that was called back to Ginn last week was a deep pass, it was underthrown as Ginn had to come back to it and win a jump ball. Much more often than not he misses those passes badly. I think it's safe to infer that if he could throw the pass down the sideline with average consistency we would see it happen more often.

We're talking about more than the Ravens game here as well. We're talking about a body of work. Smith hasn't seen success stretching the field since 2006.

As to your last paragraph, it's just re-enforcing the point that the QB is the key to stretching the field. Sure, Mike Wallace is a great WR, but would he be nearly as dynamic playing in SF with Smith? And what about guys like Anotnio Brown? Baltimore is absolutely a down field passing attack. Flacco has a huge arm, and look at how often Torrey Smith is sent deep.

Arizona had no turnover at WR1, but significant turnover at QB. Fitz's numbers were significantly effected. Your argument for Steve Smith greatly strengthens my and crimson's point here.

As for Smith not having talent at WR, his top 4 targets in the passing game on the depth chart are Crabtree, Edwards, Davis and Ginn. Edwards is injured, but the latest any of those guys were drafted is 10th overall. It's not as if he isn't surrounded with talent.

Consider this: Does our passing game greatly improve if Jay Cutler is our QB? I'm not looking for Rodgers or Brady. How would Cutler, Schaubb, Romo etc effect our aerial attack?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

here's where we disagree and i'll start from the bottom up. if i was asked to identify the biggest problem holding this offense back i'd say pass protection 1st, poor receivers 2nd [especially downfield], and smith's accuracy on the deep pass 3rd. i really don't chalk it up to arm strength. he's been good in years past in hitting v.d. on that deep seam route, can throw a nice rope a good distance, and when i see him miss the long bomb, its usually overthrows, not underthrows [the ginn pass comes to mind].

i also think the design of the offense has a lot to do with it. we've been very conservative and with the injuries to the WRs this year [first crabs, then edwards] we just haven't had much of a chance to develop that deep passing game. also, a new offense every year really hurts. you tend to work on things that you'll use more than 2/3 times per game. finally, smith is a very cerebral qb and i think he wants to be certain he's on the same page with his wideouts before unleashing the big bomb. the results of pressing for that throw when you're not telepathic w/ the WR are seen in the pick he threw to edwards at the end of the 1st half in the ravens game.

I guess we will just have to disagree. I respect your points, and there is some truth to them, but Smith has never thrown the deep ball well. In years past, he has thrown the seam to Davis impeccably. It's the only deep ball he's thrown consistently well. Smith can also throw a deep out on a rope, which is a very tough pass. But his touch on most deep passes is poor at best.

The pass blocking was a disaster last week, but it's been generally good for several weeks prior to that. And while Smith's feel in the pocket has improved immensely, he's still only average at avoiding pressure, keeping his eyes downfield, and making throws. Furthermore, once he moves in the pocket, it seems like he rarely throws downfield.

Davis dropped a beautiful deep ball a couple weeks ago, but that has been fairly rare since Smith just hasn't thrown deep much. He has repeatedly missed Crabtee in the deep-intermediate area. Edwards hasn't been healthy, so he's not a good basis for comparison, but Ginn is a legit deep threat and he and Smith just have no chemistry on those balls at all. Even this past week, the deep ball to Ginn was effectively a jump ball.

 

[vvoland]

I guess we will just have to disagree. I respect your points, and there is some truth to them, but Smith has never thrown the deep ball well. In years past, he has thrown the seam to Davis impeccably. It's the only deep ball he's thrown consistently well. Smith can also throw a deep out on a rope, which is a very tough pass. But his touch on most deep passes is poor at best.

The pass blocking was a disaster last week, but it's been generally good for several weeks prior to that. And while Smith's feel in the pocket has improved immensely, he's still only average at avoiding pressure, keeping his eyes downfield, and making throws. Furthermore, once he moves in the pocket, it seems like he rarely throws downfield.

Davis dropped a beautiful deep ball a couple weeks ago, but that has been fairly rare since Smith just hasn't thrown deep much. He has repeatedly missed Crabtee in the deep-intermediate area. Edwards hasn't been healthy, so he's not a good basis for comparison, but Ginn is a legit deep threat and he and Smith just have no chemistry on those balls at all. Even this past week, the deep ball to Ginn was effectively a jump ball.

how bout the one davis just dropped? beautiful pass into the breadbasket and he just butterfingered the whole thing..

 

[imac_21]

how bout the one davis just dropped? beautiful pass into the breadbasket and he just butterfingered the whole thing..

Again, it's between the numbers. How do his long balls look down the sideline?

 

[imac_21]

Again, it's between the numbers. How do his long balls look down the sideline?

For example, Ginn is open by 5 yards and Smith missed him horribly on a ball down the field outside the numbers.

 

[imac_21]

Missed Ginn badly again. This time on the other sideline.

At least by throwing these 10 yards out of bounds they won't get intercepted.

 

[deep9er]

I disagree with your definition of super bowl caliber offense, as would both super bowl teams from last year apparently. I'm sure the Pats are relieved to know that they're going to the super bowl once again, though.

We can run the ball better than any of the teams you mention, and that fits our style of play. Deep, I'm surprised you of all people would effectively restrict "super bowl caliber offense" to a high-flying passing attack.

i would bet most people here would be closer to my definition than yours? i'm surprised you think our offense IS SB caliber?

i'm not restricting it to passing, just taken as a whole our offense isn't good enough, and it doesn't have "great" potential. i'm ok with the scheme cause you're right, i'm ok with 50/50. but we just don't have enough talent yet.

again, not complaining for now and for this season, but if we look ahead we'll need a better QB first of all.

 

[imac_21]

And when he throws right down the middle of the field (relative to where he started), he hits Crabtree.

As I said earlier, it isn't his ability to throw deep down the middle, it's his ability to throw deep down the sideline.

 

[numone9er]

You may I'm but I'm gonna have to you or you if you keep this up.

So i should say things that are untrue if it has anything to do with any 49ers player being wrong? Can't ban me if you aren't a mod

 

[Geraint]

fans who want Alex to change from just trying to stay alive to becoming an elite passer within one season :israel:

 

[imac_21]

fans who want Alex to change from just trying to stay alive to becoming an elite passer within one season :israel:

are the equivalent of fans that ignore the holes in his game because the team has been successful?

 

[Geraint]

the hate died down for a few weeks as they got used to the unusual feeling of winning games every week now its back as good as ever just with a new disguise of not being SB calibre

 

[imac_21]

the hate died down for a few weeks as they got used to the unusual feeling of winning games every week now its back as good as ever just with a new disguise of not being SB calibre

So you think he is Super Bowl calibre?

GTFO

 

[Geraint]

 

[imac_21]

Yeah, that's how I feel reading your posts in this thread.