Is Steve Young right?

[MW49ers5]

That's likely part of it, but Gore has also had just awful hands this year, dropping four balls that were pretty much spot-on. I suspect that if he had done a nicer job catching those, we'd be throwing to him more often whether via playcalls or as an outlet receiver.

Your suspicions are incorrect, Crimson. Gore's lack of production as a receiver has nothing to do with his drops. We are simply running a different offense and Gore's role is different. Harbaugh, Smith and Gore all addressed this issue about a week ago.

Besides, Gore was rarely dangerous coming out of the backfield on dumps and checks and more often than not he was a poor option in the passing game - I'm talking strategy, not ability or statistics. I think preservation may have something to do with it as well.

Regardless, Frank's absence from the passing game, as a receiver, has been a huge positive not a negative. Think about how many on this board, and even in the media have commented about Smith's QBr vs. the blitz.

So, like I said, there is no untapped potential looming by reinserting Gore back into the passing game as a receiver. None of us want to go back to the dump-off/check-down pass and we now have Hunter to take the swing/sweep/screen* passes. Again, I hope this makes sense.

*Should we ever decide to call one of those

 

[Geraint]

Eli has been in the same offense for far longer than Smith, has far more playoff experience and his team has been consistently one of the best and most well balanced in the NFL. For media experts to be trying to compare his situation to Smith is totally premature and ridiculous. I am hardly putting Alex Smith on an elite level. With stable coaching and better receivers, I think he can get to a reasonably high level. All I am doing is pointing out some of the hypocrisy and bs in the negativity which is taking over. If that is considered to be taking an extreme position here then I have little use for this forum. It started out well but its in danger of repeating the same mistakes as other places.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Eli has been in the same offense for far longer than Smith, has far more playoff experience and his team has been consistently one of the best and most well balanced in the NFL. For media experts to be trying to compare his situation to Smith is totally premature and ridiculous. I am hardly putting Alex Smith on an elite level. With stable coaching and better receivers, I think he can get to a reasonably high level. All I am doing is pointing out some of the hypocrisy and bs in the negativity which is taking over. If that is considered to be taking an extreme position here then I have little use for this forum. It started out well but its in danger of repeating the same mistakes as other places.

Acting as if everyone else is hating on Smith is an extreme position. Most of the critiques I have seen are fair. Missing Ginn badly downfield, for instance, is not something that pertains to familiarity in the offense. It's a case of making a throw.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Eli has been in the same offense for far longer than Smith, has far more playoff experience and his team has been consistently one of the best and most well balanced in the NFL. For media experts to be trying to compare his situation to Smith is totally premature and ridiculous. I am hardly putting Alex Smith on an elite level. With stable coaching and better receivers, I think he can get to a reasonably high level. All I am doing is pointing out some of the hypocrisy and bs in the negativity which is taking over. If that is considered to be taking an extreme position here then I have little use for this forum. It started out well but its in danger of repeating the same mistakes as other places.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Your suspicions are incorrect, Crimson. Gore's lack of production as a receiver has nothing to do with his drops. We are simply running a different offense and Gore's role is different. Harbaugh, Smith and Gore all addressed this issue about a week ago.

Besides, Gore was rarely dangerous coming out of the backfield on dumps and checks and more often than not he was a poor option in the passing game - I'm talking strategy, not ability or statistics. I think preservation may have something to do with it as well.

Regardless, Frank's absence from the passing game, as a receiver, has been a huge positive not a negative. Think about how many on this board, and even in the media have commented about Smith's QBr vs. the blitz.

So, like I said, there is no untapped potential looming by reinserting Gore back into the passing game as a receiver. None of us want to go back to the dump-off/check-down pass and we now have Hunter to take the swing/sweep/screen* passes. Again, I hope this makes sense.

*Should we ever decide to call one of those

I think you are correct in identifying the primary reason why Gore is playing less of a role in the passing game. I do think his struggles catching the ball have reduced that role further, however. There is no doubt we've thrown to him less as the season progressed. It's entirely possible that is primarily because we've been expanding the offense, or because we want to save him the extra hits, but I believe Gore's inconsistency has contributed.

As for the potential for that sort of play, I think making greater use of him in a receiving role would help this offense. We don't want Smith to go back to checking down every play, but I would have absolutely no problem with him using Gore as an outlet receiver more often. And there are times, as against the Ravens, when we need to make greater use of screens. We want Gore in for his pass protecting, but he can be a threat - albeit not a breakaway threat - with the ball in space.

 

[yossarian]

Very few people on this board are whining about Smith. He has far exceeded the expectations of most this year, as has the team as a whole. But as Matt Williamson said, this team with Eli at QB, for instance, would be arguably the best in the league. With Brees, Brady, or Rodgers, they'd probably be super bowl favorites. I don't think you can say that about any other one-player switch on the team. So yes, I would say QB is still the glaring weakness on the offensive side of ball.[/QUOTE]

Crimson is the new bar that we have to get a Brees, Brady, or Rodgers before people are happy with the QB position? I think that's going to be pretty hard to do, and will lead to people being perpetually pissed. We drafted a qb last year, so unless Baalke finds some Montana/Brady like gem after the first couple of rounds its either Smith or Kapernick for the future. I guess in some ways I don't see the point of this whole discussion unless someone has a realistic alternative for what we're going to do in the future, who will we get in the offseason that will be an upgrade over the way Smith is playing now?

 

[iHATEdodgers]

Those aren't THESE posters. Those posters were left on the old board and have been barred from coming here. The posters on this board may have criticized Smith, but they have done so reasonably and fairly on the whole. And as said, the fact that you're not willing to accept rational criticism makes you as bad as the Smith haters on the ESPN board.

Very few people on this board are whining about Smith. He has far exceeded the expectations of most this year, as has the team as a whole. But as Matt Williamson said, this team with Eli at QB, for instance, would be arguably the best in the league. With Brees, Brady, or Rodgers, they'd probably be super bowl favorites. I don't think you can say that about any other one-player switch on the team. So yes, I would say QB is still the glaring weakness on the offensive side of ball.

Maybe true about Eli maybe not... he can be pretty amazing at times but other times he makes the stoopidest decisions. If Alex had thrown that pick Eli threw against the Pack this forum would be filled with HATE. I don't think he's much of an upgrade over Smith at all - talking about both their play over the past couple of seasons. Vernon still drops that bomb, Crabtree still drops all those he's dropped, Ginn still tries to catch with his helmet no matter who the QB is. Eli does hit Ginn on those sideline routes perhaps but he throws a few more picks than Alex too so it's closer to a wash than all of that.

You listed the top 3 QBs in the league... and I think there's maybe I dunno 28 other teams that would also be improved if they had one of those guys - and plenty of those teams would be at least as dramatically improved as we might be. So yes Alex Smith is not one of those Top 3 guys but actually, surprisingly, he is in the 2nd tier of QBs just after those guys.

The whole point of what I'm saying is not that Alex is the GOAT, but that his limitations are no more glaring than the OL problems or the WRs butterfingers if you ask me.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Very few people on this board are whining about Smith. He has far exceeded the expectations of most this year, as has the team as a whole. But as Matt Williamson said, this team with Eli at QB, for instance, would be arguably the best in the league. With Brees, Brady, or Rodgers, they'd probably be super bowl favorites. I don't think you can say that about any other one-player switch on the team. So yes, I would say QB is still the glaring weakness on the offensive side of ball.

Crimson is the new bar that we have to get a Brees, Brady, or Rodgers before people are happy with the QB position? I think that's going to be pretty hard to do, and will lead to people being perpetually pissed. We drafted a qb last year, so unless Baalke finds some Montana/Brady like gem after the first couple of rounds its either Smith or Kapernick for the future. I guess in some ways I don't see the point of this whole discussion unless someone has a realistic alternative for what we're going to do in the future, who will we get in the offseason that will be an upgrade over the way Smith is playing now?[/QUOTE]

I would say people will always complain and/or criticize unless we have an elite QB. And I think that's fair. Vernon Davis has been arguably the best player on our team - at least on offense - and he's got plenty of flaws. That's not to say people want to get rid of him or use a first round pick on the position, but people will criticize him, myself included, when he's making mistakes. It's also worth noting that I picked Eli in part because of Williamson's comment and in part because he's not what I would consider an elite QB right now. He's on a level with the guys I would rank 5th through 10th or so, assuming a healthy Peyton. I don't think it's too much to ask for a top-10 QB. Hard to come by, absolutely. But of course that should be the goal.

As for ending the discussion because there isn't a realistic alternative who will upgrade the position next year, that could be said of a lot of positions. We should still be looking for an upgrade. And for all I know we have one on the team in Kaepernick.

I'm not writing Smith off, and I've been generally pleased with his play this year. But he's still quite a ways away from being a great QB in my opinion, and that's what I'm looking for.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

There are probably 5 or 6 teams that become super bowl favorites if they replace their QB with Rodgers...that's not much of a point.

I was always a big Eli basher.....or at least, damperer of hype.....but watching him play this year, he is playing very well. Makes the tough throws as well as anyone outside of Rodgers. He seems to have improved greatly. That said, he is one year removed from 25 INTs, so will he continue upward or is this year the outlier. I don't watch enough Giants to be able to pinpoint who is responsible for what, or the quality of the talent and system he's working with, and how it compares to last year, and overall how he's playing so much better. But it does seem like he's improved and can be considered a top QB.

 

[Flyingiguana]

the giants basically have no running game since bradshaw got injured. it's been all eli this year. i think he's taken that next step

 

[yossarian]

Crimson is the new bar that we have to get a Brees, Brady, or Rodgers before people are happy with the QB position? I think that's going to be pretty hard to do, and will lead to people being perpetually pissed. We drafted a qb last year, so unless Baalke finds some Montana/Brady like gem after the first couple of rounds its either Smith or Kapernick for the future. I guess in some ways I don't see the point of this whole discussion unless someone has a realistic alternative for what we're going to do in the future, who will we get in the offseason that will be an upgrade over the way Smith is playing now?

I would say people will always complain and/or criticize unless we have an elite QB. And I think that's fair. Vernon Davis has been arguably the best player on our team - at least on offense - and he's got plenty of flaws. That's not to say people want to get rid of him or use a first round pick on the position, but people will criticize him, myself included, when he's making mistakes. It's also worth noting that I picked Eli in part because of Williamson's comment and in part because he's not what I would consider an elite QB right now. He's on a level with the guys I would rank 5th through 10th or so, assuming a healthy Peyton. I don't think it's too much to ask for a top-10 QB. Hard to come by, absolutely. But of course that should be the goal.

As for ending the discussion because there isn't a realistic alternative who will upgrade the position next year, that could be said of a lot of positions. We should still be looking for an upgrade. And for all I know we have one on the team in Kaepernick.

I'm not writing Smith off, and I've been generally pleased with his play this year. But he's still quite a ways away from being a great QB in my opinion, and that's what I'm looking for.[/QUOTE]

So I guess my question remains, what do you think we do now? Hope that Harbaugh can coach him up still and ride it out with him? Look for realistic alternatives? I agree with you that he is flawed by the way, but he has shown me things this year that I don't think any of us thought were possible in years past, so I'm willing to believe with the right qb coaching in the offseason he can get even better. Harbaugh knows how to coach quarterbacks, Smith has shown he can throw downfield, maybe an offseason working with Harbaugh on his mechanics will help on the passes we've been ragging on him for in this thread.

 

[h-hour]

There are probably 5 or 6 teams that become super bowl favorites if they replace their QB with Rodgers...that's not much of a point.

I was always a big Eli basher.....or at least, damperer of hype.....but watching him play this year, he is playing very well. Makes the tough throws as well as anyone outside of Rodgers. He seems to have improved greatly. That said, he is one year removed from 25 INTs, so will he continue upward or is this year the outlier. I don't watch enough Giants to be able to pinpoint who is responsible for what, or the quality of the talent and system he's working with, and how it compares to last year, and overall how he's playing so much better. But it does seem like he's improved and can be considered a top QB.

OC Kevin Gilbride is the biggest problem in Giants land in my opinion.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

As for ending the discussion because there isn't a realistic alternative who will upgrade the position next year, that could be said of a lot of positions. We should still be looking for an upgrade. And for all I know we have one on the team in Kaepernick.

I'm not writing Smith off, and I've been generally pleased with his play this year. But he's still quite a ways away from being a great QB in my opinion, and that's what I'm looking for.

So I guess my question remains, what do you think we do now? Hope that Harbaugh can coach him up still and ride it out with him? Look for realistic alternatives? I agree with you that he is flawed by the way, but he has shown me things this year that I don't think any of us thought were possible in years past, so I'm willing to believe with the right qb coaching in the offseason he can get even better. Harbaugh knows how to coach quarterbacks, Smith has shown he can throw downfield, maybe an offseason working with Harbaugh on his mechanics will help on the passes we've been ragging on him for in this thread.[/QUOTE]

For now we run with Smith and we groom Kaepernick. If we see a guy we like in FA or the draft (Josh Johnson comes to mind), we get that guy and groom them. If Smith holds them off, then he's our guy. If not, we upgrade.

 

[CalamityX11]

Rather groom Prime, I like the kid's chances alot....

 

[MW49ers5]

I think you are correct in identifying the primary reason why Gore is playing less of a role in the passing game. I do think his struggles catching the ball have reduced that role further, however. There is no doubt we've thrown to him less as the season progressed. It's entirely possible that is primarily because we've been expanding the offense, or because we want to save him the extra hits, but I believe Gore's inconsistency has contributed.

As for the potential for that sort of play, I think making greater use of him in a receiving role would help this offense. We don't want Smith to go back to checking down every play, but I would have absolutely no problem with him using Gore as an outlet receiver more often. And there are times, as against the Ravens, when we need to make greater use of screens. We want Gore in for his pass protecting, but he can be a threat - albeit not a breakaway threat - with the ball in space.

Well, regardless of the reason why Gore is seeing fewer receiving touches, if we were to quantify your theory statistically, these comments:

"That is unrealized potential." "I think making greater use of him in a receiving role would help this offense."

Equal a loss of ~65 yards & three 1st downs beginning with the CLE game.

So, digression aside, we can see there is no unrealized potential reintegrating Gore into the passing game as a receiver. IMO, this would be a more accurate and a much better argument if you replaced Gore with Hunter.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Maiocco on Smith. Seemed relevant to the discussion about the QB position and Smith's room for improvement going forward.

Difficult to imagine Smith elsewhere next year

 

[yossarian]

Maiocco on Smith. Seemed relevant to the discussion about the QB position and Smith's room for improvement going forward.

Difficult to imagine Smith elsewhere next year

I truly believe that Smith will continue to improve next season in some of the areas we've been talking about and with that I also think Harbaugh will start to open up the offense. It's just so unbelievable in retrospect how much the coaching seems to have affected him both ways, good and bad.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

Where Smith had a head start is that he learned the system well enough in May during the lockout to teach it to the 49ers' offensive players in June.

You know, I'd never considered it before......but looking at how well things have gone, how quickly they picked up the offense on a competent level, how competitive these guys are and how high the stakes were.....that Smith and Harbaugh had to have set up some kind of secure line of communication to talk about the playbook during that no-talk period. Just set up a couple of random e-mail addresses, or even phone calls....it would have been easy. Knowing Harbaugh at this point it certainly seems plausible.

 

[MHSL82]

Didn't know whether to put this in the Alex Smith Stat thread, this one, or the re-signing Alex thread, but this article about Tebow was relevant to Alex and his time here:

Instead of sticking with the notion that they had to turn Tebow into a more conventional passer once he replaced the ineffective Kyle Orton, they catered the offense to his strengths.

Instead of catering to Alex's strengths, Singletary and Nolan forced their own style of football. I always thought that they should either get rid of Alex (easier said than done) or change to his strengths. I personally thought we could have, in a limited sense, succeeded a bit if we had a system that focused on all our major players' strengths, not just quarterback. How does Gore run best? Up the middle? Hesitation? Plowing through? I'm the last person to say what that is, but as applied it clearly didn't work and at least to this current roster, was misused more under Singletary. Every coach to an extent tries to work to their players' strengths and by the draft they choose guys that need the minimal alterations to meet that goal. I'm not advocating a Tebowesque change for all coaches, but a little less stubborness could go a long way. I think Singletary/Jouhnson did a bit, but not in the same manner as it's working here. Figuring out the balance is no doubt difficult. Maybe, among other things, we needed a new guy to say what Singletary tried to say after he lost the team? Harbaugh brings more than a new face but that must play a little bit into it.

A major problem many people have with Tebow is that he looks even less like a real franchise quarterback because of that approach. What those same people often overlook is that very few teams actually have a big-time quarterback.

Alex didn't get many 300 yard games last year but with this offense that is succeeding, he looks even more of a modest yard passer and to some that means less franchise than a one dimensional offense team leader.

It's that more coaches haven't taken Denver's revamped philosophy and applied it to their own limited quarterbacks. As one AFC general manager said: "A lot of coaches out there don't know how to win. They think it's more about their systems when it really is about what their players can do. They're more concerned with stats or showing people how smart they are."

This probably explains why Washington Redskins head coach Mike Shanahan has tried so futilely to work duds like Rex Grossman and John Beck into an offense that worked best when he had John Elway running it. It's also why Chicago Bears offensive coordinator Mike Martz once seemed so hell-bent on killing his own quarterback, Jay Cutler, until he accepted that his running game could be useful as well this season. Let's not forget the San Francisco 49ers, either. Quarterback Alex Smith floundered for six seasons under two head coaches (Mike Nolan and Mike Singletary) and seven offensive coordinators until new head coach Jim Harbaugh decided to play to his quarterback's strengths.

A lot of those coaches fell into the same trap that comes in a league in which passes are thrown on 59 percent of offensive downs. The popular belief isn't just that you can't win without a quarterback. It's that you have to win with a quarterback who can do everything. Well, that philosophy works fine when you have a healthy Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. When you're the Indianapolis Colts this season -- and playing without star quarterback Peyton Manning -- you see how ugly life can become.