Is Cam Newton an MVP candidate?

[Money]

Sorry, Money, but you're wrong and you're still trivializing individual performance. While it does take a team effort (aka players doing their jobs) even for an individual to put up good numbers, it still requires excellence from the individual and is not contingent on everybody else playing well. Barry Sanders wasn't one of the greatest RBs of all time because he was surrounded by better players and a better O-line than most other RBs, but your argument essentially implies that he was. Barry would've been great on any team and when you compare him to some of the other greatest RBs of all time, you absolutely do use his stats as part of the basis for that comparison. He's in the record books as Barry Sanders, not the 90's Lions. The same goes for individual players at other positions and even in other sports.

Likewise, for Cam, his numbers aren't bad simply because of bad weather, bad receivers, and a bunch of other guys who are just there to make him look bad. He might have marginally better numbers on some teams, marginally worse numbers on others, but for the most part his numbers aren't good because his play isn't.

Not everything is a team stat and that's all there is to it, unless you want to start saying things like Ben's 3 interceptions on Sunday were the team's fault and not his, because that's what your argument suggests.

I don't trivialize individual performance. I just don't evaluate individual performance by stats alone. It's just not that simplistic.

I have no idea who's fault Ben's interceptions were (I didn't watch that game), but I obviously do know that there are many cases where an interception is not the QB's fault.

 

[night]

If you want to look at it statistically, Cincy's defense is giving up less points per game than Carolina's. Dalton obviously has a better supporting cast around him on offense. Yet...both teams are 7-0.

You just can't quantify what Cam has done with so little around him this year.

You have to at least have a compelling argument since he doesn't have the stats to be in the MVP conversation.

 

[Money]

You have to at least have a compelling argument since he doesn't have the stats to be in the MVP conversation.

It's just a difference of opinion. I don't put everything into stats...you do.

 

[SteelerKing]

I don't trivialize individual performance. I just don't evaluate individual performance by stats alone.

That's a completely different argument than saying "every stat is a team stat" and not wanting to count a player's stats as his individual performance numbers unless he's "lining up 1 against 11 and completing passes to himself". Nobody evaluates individual performance exclusively by stats, although some (like myself) put a lot of weight on them because of the fact that they are the numerical representation of a player's on field performance. A 30/40, 4 TD, 0 INT, 400 passing yard performance > a 20/40, 1 TD, 2 INT, 285 passing yard performance and you don't even need to see it to make that distinction.

I will say though that it's a bit ironic that you want to credit wins to the individual, but not his own stats, and that's a poor, irrational, and overused argument that I've already addressed and that prompted this whole discussion. Most other teams would have a losing record with Newton's play. He's not the reason they're 7-0.

 

[Balljim55]

As an avid Panthers fan I do not think Cam is yet in the MVP discussion. I do think he possesses unique skills for a QB and his game statistically speaking, does not fit into prototypical QB stats. For instance 40% of his runs result in a first down or TD. This is the best percentage for any player since 2011 through now. Since 2011 he has more TD runs than any player except Beast mode. Additionally Carolinas offense is predicated on running the ball and taking shots down the field. A relatively high percentage of his throws are over 20 yards which are harder to complete.

I do wish he would not throw off his back foot as much. I do wish he would stop with the Superman stuff and the first down celebrations. But I do like his exuberance. I love the way he works with kids year round and considers that to be a major responsibility.

The bottom line is he is a winner. Pretty or not he finds a way to get it done even if it means he lowers his shoulder and takes on a linebacker. The Panthers are playing like a true team better than any time in their history and Cam is a big part of the reason why.

We Panther fans are ecstatic that he is our QB, so feel free to keep living through your stat sheets and FF leagues.

 

[Money]

I will say though that it's a bit ironic that you want to credit wins to the individual, but not his own stats, and that's a poor, irrational, and overused argument that I've already addressed and that prompted this whole discussion. Most other teams would have a losing record with Newton's play. He's not the reason they're 7-0.

That certainly would be ironic if I ever had said that. I have said everything is a team accomplishment.

To fix your last sentence, he's not the only reason they're 7-0. You seem to be giving an awful lot of credit to Carolina's 10th-ranked defense though. There are quite a few defenses that have actually been more impressive this year and aren't sitting undefeated.

 

[Rex Racer]

If they finish 15-1, he might get a couple "lifetime achievement award" votes




He shouldn't, but the MVP award is not about the most valuable player. If it was, Peyton would have won that year he was out, since he CLEARLY demonstrated that he was more valuable than any other play in the league. (Compare Colts Peyton/Painter to Packers Rodgers/Flynn)

Shut up, stupid.

 

[Rex Racer]

Yes, he should be in the conversation. It's actually a stupid question.

No, he is awful.

He is a ginormous running back masquerading as a QB, one that has terrible mechanics, awful accuracy and the brain power of a flea. Carolina owes their 7-0 start to a combination of their schedule and their defense.

 

[sonnyblack65]

I don't trivialize individual performance. I just don't evaluate individual performance by stats alone. It's just not that simplistic.

I have no idea who's fault Ben's interceptions were (I didn't watch that game), but I obviously do know that there are many cases where an interception is not the QB's fault.

Ben has been consistently a great QB and his int are usually low. This was his first game after injury so you have to expect some rust. When I think of Carolina I think about Kuechly and now addding vets Allen ,Harper and Tillman, that d is pretty good. Luke was all over the field last night. And Greg Olson aint no slouch

 

[sonnyblack65]

Shut up, stupid.

I know right anybody that compares Flynn to Painter aint too bright and having lost some games by accident to get Luck. I never saw a worse QB than Painter his throws were always in the ground 5 yards before the player

 

[night]

It's just a difference of opinion. I don't put everything into stats...you do.

If he's doing something that doesn't show up in the stats are there examples of what he does that doesn't show up in the stats that makes him MVP worthy?

 

[Money]

Ben has been consistently a great QB and his int are usually low. This was his first game after injury so you have to expect some rust. When I think of Carolina I think about Kuechly and now addding vets Allen ,Harper and Tillman, that d is pretty good. Luke was all over the field last night. And Greg Olson aint no slouch

Ben is probably my favorite QB. I fully respect everything he does on the field.

 

[Money]

If he's doing something that doesn't show up in the stats are there examples of what he does that doesn't show up in the stats that makes him MVP worthy?

I can't do any better than the Carolina fan did in the post above.

Just to be clear...I would give the MVP to Brady right now. I'm just not eliminating Cam from consideration.

 

[sonnyblack65]

Ben is probably my favorite QB. I fully respect everything he does on the field.

Not my fav obviously but respect him and have him in top 3-4. He has been huge for Pitt and doubt they see those 3 SB's w/o him

 

[Rex Racer]

I know right anybody that compares Flynn to Painter aint too bright and having lost some games by accident to get Luck. I never saw a worse QB than Painter his throws were always in the ground 5 yards before the player

How anyone can look at his stat line and not come away believing that he is a CH above average is beyond me. If the fucking schmuck could hit a 20 yard out or a 15 yard slant with any regularity he might not suck, but he can't make those throws because his mechanics are turrible. Being stoopit doesn't help him either.

 

[SteelerKing]

You'd be better off with a lot of other quarterbacks @Balljim55. What you and others are doing is simply looking at the wins, seeing Cam's contributions to those wins, and making it seem like he's a more significant contributor to them than he actually is. Some of my own fellow Steelers fans on other sites tried to make it seem like Ben played well in Super Bowl XL because he ran for some key first downs to keep the chains moving and had that controversial goal line dive TD, but that's looking at it through the rosy colored glasses of having won the game and being a homer. Ben was terrible and was not himself. Had we lost, it would've been largely his fault.

Please don't think I'm pretending to know more about your own team than you do, but what I just described is exactly what's going on here. The stats don't always tell the full story, but they come real close if you know what you're looking at - it's why box scores exist, to "recap" the game and how well the players played. When you're evaluating Newton's play as a quarterback - not just a player who's also doing some other little things to compensate for his own poor play - he measures up against some of the worst in the league this year. Those 40 rushing yards per game don't mask how atrocious he's been through the air nor does the 7-0 record. He's Tim Tebow 2.0 and has no business being in the discussion for league MVP. It's pure nonsense.

 

[Robotech]

If he were a good passer, then yes he would be a legit MVP candidate. The Panthers are 7-0 so far this year and Newton is a beast in their rushing attack, but Newton's basically the same passer he's been all his career. He is often inaccurate (seems to throw too high many times) and has a high INT rate.

 

[sonnyblack65]

You'd be better off with a lot of other quarterbacks @Balljim55. What you and others are doing is simply looking at the wins, seeing Cam's contributions to those wins, and making it seem like he's a more significant contributor to them than he actually is. Some of my own fellow Steelers fans on other sites tried to make it seem like Ben played well in Super Bowl XL because he ran for some key first downs to keep the chains moving and had that controversial goal line dive TD, but that's looking at it through the rosy colored glasses of having won the game and being a homer. Ben was terrible and was not himself. Had we lost, it would've been largely his fault.

Please don't think I'm pretending to know more about your own team than you do, but what I just described is exactly what's going on here. The stats don't always tell the full story, but they come real close if you know what you're looking at - it's why box scores exist, to "recap" the game and how well the players played. When you're evaluating Newton's play as a quarterback - not just a player who's also doing some other little things to compensate for his own poor play - he measures up against some of the worst in the league this year. Those 40 rushing yards per game don't mask how atrocious he's been through the air nor does the 7-0 record. He's Tim Tebow 2.0 and has no business being in the discussion for league MVP. It's pure nonsense.

Good call he was Tebow's benchwarmer at FL before he went on to Juco and then Auburn

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Re-visiting this after thinking it over for several hours.

Still no.

 

[dkmightyhammer]

Not my fav obviously but respect him and have him in top 3-4. He has been huge for Pitt and doubt they see those 3 SB's w/o him

I don't want to start a whole thing here, but one of those SB wins had nothing to do with Ben. His stat line in one of them was 9 for 21, 123 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs and a QB rating of 22.1. I'll let you guess which SB that was.