Im sorry Mussina isnt deserving of HOF.

[huskers1217]

Pitcher A - .638 win %, 123 ERA+, 1.19 WHIP, 57 CG, 23 shutouts, 2.0 BB/9, 7.1 K/9
Pitcher B - .615 win %, 121 ERA+, 1.30 WHIP, 52 CG, 22 shutouts, 3.1 BB/9, 5.4 K/9
Pitcher C - .579 win %, 125 ERA+, 1.18 WHIP, 53 CG, 16 shutouts, 2.6 BB/9, 8.0 K/9





Pitcher A is Mussina
Pitcher B is Glavine through the same # of innings (if we added his last few seasons those numbers get worse)
Pitcher C is Smoltz


So if Mussina is not HOF worthy and just average, what are Glavine and Smoltz?

SV
154

SO
3084

 

[StanMarsh51]

SV
154

SO
3084

A good starter is worth more than a good reliever, so why exactly do his saves mean so much in the comparison?

And great, Smoltz struck out ~250 more batters while getting to face a pitcher 2-3x a start...I'd imagine a pitcher's more likely to strikeout Al Leiter and Randy Wolf than Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas and David Ortiz, no?

 

[huskers1217]

A good starter is worth more than a good reliever, so why exactly do his saves mean so much in the comparison?

And great, Smoltz struck out ~250 more batters while getting to face a pitcher 2-3x a start...I'd imagine it's easier to pitch to Al Leiter than Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas.

btw..i think Mussina deserves to be in. I just don't think Smoltz is a good comparison because of his years as a closer.

AL has their rules and NL has their rules. Smoltz dominated in whatever task he was asked to do by his team. If you think pitchers batting increased your SO numbers then maybe the AL should drop the DH. The Braves won alot of games that they would have lost if Smoltz didn't come in and close those games.

 

[huskers1217]

glavine also had hardware (cy youngs, silver sluggers) that Mussina does not.

 

[StanMarsh51]

btw..i think Mussina deserves to be in. I just don't think Smoltz is a good comparison because of his years as a closer.

AL has their rules and NL has their rules. Smoltz dominated in whatever task he was asked to do by his team. If you think pitchers batting increased your SO numbers then maybe the AL should drop the DH. The Braves won alot of games that they would have lost if Smoltz didn't come in and close those games.

How can you be so sure? It's been shown that often, the most important outs in the game aren't when a closer's pitching. If Smoltz comes in during a 5-2 game with no runners on, are you confident that another guy closing blows that game? The majority of a closer's saves are typically in 2+ run games.

A good starter is worth more than a good closer....there's no way you'd convince anyone that Mariano Rivera is worth more than Greg Maddux or Pedro or Randy Johnson for instance.

 

[StanMarsh51]

glavine also had hardware (cy youngs, silver sluggers) that Mussina does not.

2 Cy Youngs accounts for 2 of Glavine's 22 years....do the other 20 years not matter? You don't think that we should account for overall performance instead of narrowing it down to a select few years? Mussina did have 7 Gold Gloves fwiw.

Glavine also had no business winning the 1998 Cy, but that's another story...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

How can you be so sure? It's been shown that often, the most important outs in the game aren't when a closer's pitching. If Smoltz comes in during a 5-2 game with no runners on, are you confident that another guy closing blows that game? The majority of a closer's saves are typically in 2+ run games.

A good starter is worth more than a good closer....there's no way you'd convince anyone that Mariano Rivera is worth more than Greg Maddux or Pedro or Randy Johnson for instance.

But would you agree that a good overall bullpen makes your STARTERS better

More than the other way around??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

2 Cy Youngs accounts for 2 of Glavine's 22 years....do the other 20 years not matter? You don't think that we should account for overall performance instead of narrowing it down to a select few years? Mussina did have 7 Gold Gloves fwiw.

Glavine also had no business winning the 1998 Cy, but that's another story...

why did he have no business winning the 1998 CY??

he was the only pitcher with 20+ wins,

and Had a similar ERA to the other qualifiers

 

[StanMarsh51]

why did he have no business winning the 1998 CY??

he was the only pitcher with 20+ wins,

and Had a similar ERA to the other qualifiers

The 20 wins is why he won, because voters were still enamored with that number back then....

Glavine: 20-7, 2.47 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 229 IP, 4 CG, 74 BB, 157 K, .238 BAA, .624 OPS against
Maddux:18-9, 2.22 ERA, 0.98 WHIP, 251 IP, 9 CG, 45 BB, 204 K, .220 BAA, .560 OPS against
Brown-: 18-7, 2.38 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 257 IP, 7 CG, 49 BB, 257 K, .235 BAA, .572 OPS against

Worse ERA, worse WHIP, 20+ fewer innings, many more walks, many less K's, much worse OPS against. But he had 2 more wins...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The 20 wins is why he won, because voters were still enamored with that number back then....

Glavine: 20-7, 2.47 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 229 IP, 4 CG, 74 BB, 157 K, .238 BAA, .624 OPS against
Maddux:18-9, 2.22 ERA, 0.98 WHIP, 251 IP, 9 CG, 45 BB, 204 K, .220 BAA, .560 OPS against
Brown-: 18-7, 2.38 ERA, 1.07 WHIP, 257 IP, 7 CG, 49 BB, 257 K, .235 BAA, .572 OPS against

Worse ERA, worse WHIP, 20+ fewer innings, many more walks, many less K's, much worse OPS against. But he had 2 more wins...

so your bias against the wins stat blinds you from his worthiness...

 

[StanMarsh51]

so your bias against the wins stat blinds you from his worthiness...

Wins is not more important than 'everything else' when evaluating starters.

Was Bartolo Colon worthy of the Cy in 2005 over Santana? He was better in wins but worse in everything else that year....this seems to be the logic you're using here....

 

[navamind]

so your bias against the wins stat blinds you from his worthiness...

And maybe your enarmorment with milestones and counting stats blinds you from Moose''s worthiness.

 

[nynasty]

Wins is not more important than 'everything else' when evaluating starters.

Was Bartolo Colon worthy of the Cy in 2005 over Santana? He was better in wins but worse in everything else that year....this seems to be the logic you're using here....

Mo should have won the Cy that year. Probably his best overall season.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And maybe your enarmorment with milestones and counting stats blinds you from Moose''s worthiness.

maybe... But I only look at that for longevity... measuring dominant seasons is different...

 

[Guy Incognito]

Mussina is possibly a fringe HOFer, but it's not like he doesn't belong in the conversation.

Sure, his ERA is high, but it's not astronomically high. There are guys like Burleigh Grimes (who led the league in runs allowed multiple times) in the Hall. Mussina's K rates are pretty remarkable (fifth among HOF pitchers in K/BB, 13th in K/9, 18th in K/season). If guys like Catfish Hunter are in there, Mussina isn't a stretch.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Mo should have won the Cy that year. Probably his best overall season.

Mo was great, but Santana was too good to deny imo...


2nd in ERA (missed leading the league by 0.01)
1st in ERA+
1st in WHIP
1st in BAA
1st in K's and K/9
2nd in innings
2nd in shutouts
2nd in K/BB
1st in WAR

 

[PolarVortex]

I don't have any problem with Moose getting in. If he had pitched in an earlier era, he would have had over 300 career wins, which is a HOF watermark. 20-game winners are rare now. 17 is the new 20. 15 is the new 18.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Mussina is possibly a fringe HOFer, but it's not like he doesn't belong in the conversation.

Sure, his ERA is high, but it's not astronomically high. There are guys like Burleigh Grimes (who led the league in runs allowed multiple times) in the Hall. Mussina's K rates are pretty remarkable (fifth among HOF pitchers in K/BB, 13th in K/9, 18th in K/season). If guys like Catfish Hunter are in there, Mussina isn't a stretch.

oh... I agree... and even though I am arguing against him, I really don't have THAT much of a problem with him in... He is better than MANY who are in... Although, I don't think past mistakes justifies current ones...

I think my biggest problem is that he got in before some others who I rank better... and how others like Johan Santana and Kevin Brown were pushed out of the ballot so quickly...

 

[nynasty]

Mo was great, but Santana was too good to deny imo...


2nd in ERA (missed leading the league by 0.01)
1st in ERA+
1st in WHIP
1st in BAA
1st in K's and K/9
2nd in innings
2nd in shutouts
2nd in K/BB
1st in WAR

Mo didn't have the innings to qualify, but he had a 308 ERA+. Not usually a fan of relievers winning, but that season he was so damn good-he had a mind-boggling 0.26 ERA on the road. In my mind, definitely comparable to Gagne's 2003, where he did take home the hardware. I think if Colon doesn't get to 21 wins, he doesn't even finish top 5.

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

Glavine's last 5 years with the Mets were magical......Pushing him over the the 300 win milestone.....

SUNUVABITCH