Im sorry Mussina isnt deserving of HOF.

[The Q]

Peterson and Bell said that too. Stupid, off the cuff comment.

I don't think that is the same thing as Curt being a trumpeter for the right and he was ultimately fired over his commentary about transgender people.

Jemele Hill should have been fired about 5 times for her absurd public rants.

My point is, if Curt would stop saying stupid/bigoted things and just talk about baseball or not at all, he'd probably be in. The guy has said he's not in because of his politics and Smoltz is because of his politics. I don't think that is the case, I think that he's an outspoken, unapologetic asshole and Smoltz isn't.

You’re right. It’s far dumber.
Hill is another good example. What she did was easily worse than anything schilling has done, and it’s not even close

 

[black francis]

You’re right. It’s far dumber.
Hill is another good example. What she did was easily worse than anything schilling has done, and it’s not even close

Schilling's crime is being a conservative that says stupid things

Libs who say stupid shit are forgiven, because it's expected that they say dumbshit things

 

[VikingFan2k2]

You’re right. It’s far dumber.
Hill is another good example. What she did was easily worse than anything schilling has done, and it’s not even close

No it isn't. One dumb thing said doesn't equal dozens.

What Hill has said is maybe on a similar level, but nobody is letting that race baiting idiot into any HOF anytime soon and I don't think anyone wants to be on her level in terms of crybaby factor. Curt is, he's just on the exact opposite side.

"Poor black people everywhere" vs "Poor white men everywhere". Both are absurd in different ways.

Just because you might agree with Curt's politics doesn't make him right.

PS: Are the Red Sox actually going to invite him for the 15 year reunion this year or is he just going to keep digging himself a bigger hole?

 

[VikingFan2k2]

Schilling's crime is being a conservative that says stupid things

Libs who say stupid shit are forgiven, because it's expected that they say dumbshit things

Libs are stupid as shit, I'll grant you that. But righties are equally as stupid. Look no further than the current state of the White House.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Look at this thread.

 

[VikingFan2k2]

Look at this thread.

What? Going a little off course is too much for you?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Well you’re wrong. Statistically, Mussina is one of the best 25 pitchers of all time, which actually meets your insane 5 players a generation rule. So even by your own insane guidelines Mussina easily passes the threshold.

Not a stretch at all to say that Mussina's a top ~25 pitcher of all time....


Among the 252 pitchers who've thrown 2,500 innings, Mussina is:

23rd all time in WAR for pitchers
15th in win %
38th in ERA+
56th in WHIP
20th in K's
13th in K/BB



And a good chunk of the guys ahead of him in these categories played WW1, where half the league had a WHIP better than 1.10 or low walk rate since batters swung at everything.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Not a stretch at all to say that Mussina's a top ~25 pitcher of all time....


Among the 252 pitchers who've thrown 2,500 innings, Mussina is:

23rd all time in WAR for pitchers
15th in win %
38th in ERA+
56th in WHIP
20th in K's
13th in K/BB



And a good chunk of the guys ahead of him in these categories played WW1, where half the league had a WHIP better than 1.10 or low walk rate since batters swung at everything.

Might not be a stretch to say it, as you can defend Many who are not top 25 to be top 25..

But the real question would be is he top 25 on your list...

I can easily tell you he is not even top 50 on my list...

also, I like how you make a disclaimer about WHIP, but don't make a similar disclaimer about K's that negatively affects him...

 

[Yanks23242]

Might not be a stretch to say it, as you can defend Many who are not top 25 to be top 25..

But the real question would be is he top 25 on your list...

I can easily tell you he is not even top 50 on my list...

also, I like how you make a disclaimer about WHIP, but don't make a similar disclaimer about K's that negatively affects him...

An argument can be made he’s outside the top 25; if he’s not in your top 50...and easily outside your top 50 that’s just flat out ridiculous. Just for shits and giggles who’s 41-50 on your list that are “easily” above Mussina

 

[MilkSpiller22]

An argument can be made he’s outside the top 25; if he’s not in your top 50...and easily outside your top 50 that’s just flat out ridiculous. Just for shits and giggles who’s 41-50 on your list that are “easily” above Mussina

well, I give dominance the edge to longevity... haven't made the list, so really don't know(and even my claim might be wrong)...

But I can tell you I have pitchers like Kevin Brown and Johan Santana over Mussina... and have Curt Schilling over Mussina since their regular season careers are similar and Schilling may be the best post season starting pitcher of all time...


Someone earlier in this or the other thread compared Mussina to Blyleven... I actually think that is the perfect comparison... Maybe Mussina has the small edge on Blyleven(who is a HOFer)... so again even with my arguments against him being a HOFer I don't really have a problem with it...

 

[Yanks23242]

well, I give dominance the edge to longevity... haven't made the list, so really don't know(and even my claim might be wrong)...

But I can tell you I have pitchers like Kevin Brown and Johan Santana over Mussina... and have Curt Schilling over Mussina since their regular season careers are similar and Schilling may be the best post season starting pitcher of all time...


Someone earlier in this or the other thread compared Mussina to Blyleven... I actually think that is the perfect comparison... Maybe Mussina has the small edge on Blyleven(who is a HOFer)... so again even with my arguments against him being a HOFer I don't really have a problem with it...

Schilling, Brown, and Mussina are all in that 20-40 all time range where arguments can be made for all of them to be better than the other.

Santana, on the other hand doesn’t make much sense and I’ll tell you why: I’m going to use bWAR for this, just because it’s easier for this format.

I get the whole peak vs. longevity argument and all things being equal I’d take the guy with the higher peak; the problem with Santana is that his career is all peak. His 7 year run he accumulated 43.2 bWAR; Mussina’s best 7 year run he got 38.8. So Moose is giving 90% of what Santana gave you at his peak, plus an additional five 5+ bWAR seasons including an 8.2, which is only a half a win short of Santana’s best year. I don’t see how you don’t choose the extra decade of good to great seasons when the peaks are relatively close.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Schilling, Brown, and Mussina are all in that 20-40 all time range where arguments can be made for all of them to be better than the other.

Santana, on the other hand doesn’t make much sense and I’ll tell you why: I’m going to use bWAR for this, just because it’s easier for this format.

I get the whole peak vs. longevity argument and all things being equal I’d take the guy with the higher peak; the problem with Santana is that his career is all peak. His 7 year run he accumulated 43.2 bWAR; Mussina’s best 7 year run he got 38.8. So Moose is giving 90% of what Santana gave you at his peak, plus an additional five 5+ bWAR seasons including an 8.2, which is only a half a win short of Santana’s best year. I don’t see how you don’t choose the extra decade of good to great seasons when the peaks are relatively close.

But his peak was 5 great seasons(always helps when consecutive seasons- Which I take into account)... its not like I want to put Lincecum or Cliff Lee on this list...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and I rank Current SPs Kershaw, Scherzer and Verlander all to be better than Mussina

Kluber is on his way to be too... But not quite there yet...

 

[Yanks23242]

But his peak was 5 great seasons(always helps when consecutive seasons- Which I take into account)... its not like I want to put Lincecum or Cliff Lee on this list...

Right...and Mussina’s peak was almost as good and he gave you so much more additional quality seasons. Santana’s career WAR was 50. Mussina’s career WAR, not including his best 5 year run, was almost 56.

 

[Yanks23242]

and I rank Current SPs Kershaw, Scherzer and Verlander all to be better than Mussina

Kluber is on his way to be too... But not quite there yet...

I’d agree with those three, but barring a Nolan Ryan type twilight of his career, Kluber isn’t going to come close to touching Mussina.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I’d agree with those three, but barring a Nolan Ryan type twilight of his career, Kluber isn’t going to come close to touching Mussina.

idk... his recent peak is already higher than Mussina's best... he just needs a few more seasons of eliteness... and if it continues to be consecutive seasons then i have him over... Really one more CY contending season, and he takes the lead... Kind of like how Scherzer is...

 

[Rod Freakin' Dangerfield]

I think of him as an Oriole but the ONLY reason he is going in is because he wore PinStripes. Average at best IMO.

Agreed.

 

[Omar 382]

Have you ever seen a list of the guys who can cast a vote? That's part of the problem

Yeah. A lot of them are like you.

 

[Montalban]

Yeah. A lot of them are like you.

Exactly. They are laymen like me and part of the reason a decent player like Mussina got in when his numbers don't measure up.

 

[The Q]

Mussina is easily a top 50 pitcher of all time.

Frankly, Rivera probably isn't. But that probably depends on how one views relievers.