HOF Ballot Released

[soxfan1468927]

but vizquel was a much better bat than Belanger... and we are debating Scott Rolen and Andruw Jones...

Vizquel was, in an extreme offensive era.

And we are?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Vizquel was, in an extreme offensive era.

And we are?

didn't mean we are debating them right this second, me and you... just that we have in the 2 HOF threads talked about how they are serious contenders thanks to their defenses...

and yes Vizquel played in an extreme offensive era, but he wasn't a power hitter... Not sure how exaggerated the numbers are for non power hitters...

 

[Chewbaccer]

Chipper Jones
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Vlad Guerrero
Jim Thome
Curt Schilling
Omar Vizquel
Fred McGriff
Manny Ramirez
Larry Walker

 

[soxfan1468927]

didn't mean we are debating them right this second, me and you... just that we have in the 2 HOF threads talked about how they are serious contenders thanks to their defenses...

and yes Vizquel played in an extreme offensive era, but he wasn't a power hitter... Not sure how exaggerated the numbers are for non power hitters...

They are serious contenders thanks to their defense as well as their offense. I don't see the comparison between them and Vizquel.

Maybe they aren't exaggerated, but they are less valuable. The point is to win the game, and therefore in a lower run scoring environment, any offensive production is more valuable.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

They are serious contenders thanks to their defense as well as their offense. I don't see the comparison between them and Vizquel.

Maybe they aren't exaggerated, but they are less valuable. The point is to win the game, and therefore in a lower run scoring environment, any offensive production is more valuable.

I know you want to say you are looking at the full picture, but in no way would either Rolen or Jones even be considered if it wasn't for their defense... so then the question is how much should defense be considered?? if those 2 players are to be considered I don't see how you can not consider Vizquel... Especially since SS is a higher defensive value than 3B...

 

[Voltaire26]

Vizquel is an interesting one... He was the best defensive SS of his era... And had the longevity with a decent bat...

But does it hurt him, that we have seen defensive first SS make it already?? Should every BEST of an era defensively make it??

Ray Olyer Ray Oyler Stats | Baseball-Reference.com into the Hall of Fame with the Ozzie Smith clause

 

[navamind]

They didn't even play the same position.

I'm aware. I mentioned Ellis because they were both great fielders not known for their bat (though Ellis actually had some pretty good offensive years). They were both average/above average for the majority of their career per WAR, though Vizquel had some pretty lousy years mixed in as well.

Omar Vizquel Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Mark Ellis Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Omar has about 12 more WAR, but that's because he hung around, not necessarily because he really good. Maybe Dave Concepcion with a longer career is a better comp.

didn't mean we are debating them right this second, me and you... just that we have in the 2 HOF threads talked about how they are serious contenders thanks to their defenses...

and yes Vizquel played in an extreme offensive era, but he wasn't a power hitter... Not sure how exaggerated the numbers are for non power hitters...

doesn't matter if he wasn't a power hitter, he was a mediocre hitter even by SS standards.

 

[navamind]

I know you want to say you are looking at the full picture, but in no way would either Rolen or Jones even be considered if it wasn't for their defense... so then the question is how much should defense be considered?? if those 2 players are to be considered I don't see how you can not consider Vizquel... Especially since SS is a higher defensive value than 3B...

But they were much better hitters compared to their positional peers than Omar was, or at least Rolen was.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But they were much better hitters compared to their positional peers than Omar was, or at least Rolen was.

your basically rewarding Rolen for being a power hitter in a power hitting era though... But he was only top 10 in the NL in OBP 1, Slugging% 1, RBIs 2(once top 5)... Was never top 10 in HRs...

Point is, if you put him in it is entirely because of defense... He wasn't even a top 10 NL bat of his time...

 

[navamind]

your basically rewarding Rolen for being a power hitter in a power hitting era though... But he was only top 10 in the NL in OBP 1, Slugging% 1, RBIs 2(once top 5)... Was never top 10 in HRs...

Point is, if you put him in it is entirely because of defense... He wasn't even a top 10 NL bat of his time...

But I'm not putting him solely because of his defense, Rolen was still a better hitter than most of his 3B peers even if he was hardly among the top hitters in the league. Vizquel was about average offensively for a SS (perhaps below average).

 

[navamind]

Here's their stats vs the league average production for their positions by year.

Omar:

Major League Total Stats » 2012 » Shortstops » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

Omar Vizquel » Statistics » Batting | FanGraphs Baseball

Rolen:

Scott Rolen » Statistics » Batting | FanGraphs Baseball


Major League Total Stats » 2012 » Third Basemen » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

I don't know how to get the average wRC+ for those positions for those entire spans instead of year-by-year, but Rolen was well above average the majority of his career whereas Omar was average-ish.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But I'm not putting him solely because of his defense, Rolen was still a better hitter than most of his 3B peers even if he was hardly among the top hitters in the league. Vizquel was about average offensively for a SS (perhaps below average).

I am not pro, or against him...

I am only questioning where the line is for how to value defense in this HOF question... Vizquel was the BEST defensive SS of his era... Rolen was the 2nd best 3B...

Yes, Rolen was better offensively than Vizquel, but neither are anywhere near HOFers for offense...


same question for Andruw jones... But at least he had more seasons with top 5 stats at least in the major ones...

 

[Voltaire26]

I'm aware. I mentioned Ellis because they were both great fielders not known for their bat (though Ellis actually had some pretty good offensive years). They were both average/above average for the majority of their career per WAR, though Vizquel had some pretty lousy years mixed in as well.

Omar Vizquel Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Mark Ellis Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Omar has about 12 more WAR, but that's because he hung around, not necessarily because he really good. Maybe Dave Concepcion with a longer career is a better comp.


doesn't matter if he wasn't a power hitter, he was a mediocre hitter even by SS standards.

Lou Whitaker 74.9 WAR (3 GG)
Omar Vizquel 45.3 WAR (11 GG)
Mark Ellis 33.4 WAR (0 GG)

Lou Whitaker got less than 2% of the vote and was not worthy enough to be considered by the old timers committee

Also Lou Whitaker was part of the all time keystone combination for games played (with non HOF Alan Trammell).

 

[navamind]

Lou Whitaker 74.9 WAR (3 GG)
Omar Vizquel 45.3 WAR (11 GG)
Mark Ellis 33.4 WAR (0 GG)

Lou Whitaker got less than 2% of the vote and was not worthy enough to be considered by the old timers committee

Also Lou Whitaker was part of the all time keystone combination for games played (with non HOF Alan Trammell).

idk what that has to do with them. Whitaker deserves to be in IMO. My point is more that I don't think Vizquel is even close to being a HOFer and he's probably the most overrated player of all-time. I don't see how he compares to Ozzie either.

 

[navamind]

I am not pro, or against him...

I am only questioning where the line is for how to value defense in this HOF question... Vizquel was the BEST defensive SS of his era... Rolen was the 2nd best 3B...

Yes, Rolen was better offensively than Vizquel, but neither are anywhere near HOFers for offense...


same question for Andruw jones... But at least he had more seasons with top 5 stats at least in the major ones...

Not sure I'd throw that against him when the guy that was better is one of the greatest defensive players in baseball history.

We're talking about HOF for their overall performance, not their offense. I'd say Rolen's combination of offense and defense is far more valuable than Vizquel's. Again, check the links I posted. Rolen was a far better hitter than his positional peers than Vizquel was.

 

[Voltaire26]

idk what that has to do with them. Whitaker deserves to be in IMO. My point is more that I don't think Vizquel is even close to being a HOFer.

Well, I think I kinda proved your point.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Not sure I'd throw that against him when the guy that was better is one of the greatest defensive players in baseball history.

We're talking about HOF for their overall performance, not their offense. I'd say Rolen's combination of offense and defense is far more valuable than Vizquel's. Again, check the links I posted. Rolen was a far better hitter than his positional peers than Vizquel was.

Yea, i dont care about positional offense... your offense numbers are either good enough or they are not...

But i ask you, if Rolen was not an elite defensive 3B would you even be spitting his name out here?? my point is no matter how hard you hide it, you are considering him because of his defense... Not his offense... and it is not a combination...

its more like how amusement parks let kids onto rides, you must be this tall to get on this ride...

I just question where the limit is... the when is elite defense not enough to let you in...

 

[Iffster]

The fact that people are sitting and DEBATING who should or should not be in the HOF, shows what the Hall has become. Simply a once a year party and public relations event for the city of Cooperstown and MLB. A TRUE Hall of Fame would only include players whose play left no doubt, in 99.9% of everyone's mind, that they belong. No stats would be needed, no ifs or maybes. A REAL HOF, that represents about 150 years of baseball, would have no more than 50+ players. The Cobbs, Ruths, Mantles, Mays - the best of the best. Chipper Jones on an even plain with DiMaggio? Get the hell out. The Hall is a joke.....it has become a plaything for the ''stat pack'' and has been watered down to worthlessness.

 

[Iffster]

I want my favorite player in the HOF or I'll whine.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

The fact that people are sitting and DEBATING who should or should not be in the HOF, shows what the Hall has become. Simply a once a year party and public relations event for the city of Cooperstown and MLB. A TRUE Hall of Fame would only include players whose play left no doubt, in 99.9% of everyone's mind, that they belong. No stats would be needed, no ifs or maybes. A REAL HOF, that represents about 150 years of baseball, would have no more than 50+ players. The Cobbs, Ruths, Mantles, Mays - the best of the best. Chipper Jones on an even plain with DiMaggio? Get the hell out. The Hall is a joke.....it has become a plaything for the ''stat pack'' and has been watered down to worthlessness.

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Awesomeness. It's a museum. If 99.9% of people had to agree on what constitutes a Hall of Famer, there'd be ZERO people in the HOF.