Has Lebron passed Kobe on the all time list?

[DJ]

I dont think its a "for sure" thing for Lebron on Kobe. Which is why I brought up the question. Arguable when you consider:

1. Kobe played in a superior conference his ENTIRE career
2. Kobe won his last two championships with less help than Lebron has had the last 6 years playing in a tougher conference to do it
3. And he still has 2 'ships over Lebron (Even though 3 of them was playing 2nd fiddle to Shaq, he was still a big part in them)

This.

James has played in the EC and it shows in his W-L record in the Finals.

Plus, Kobe never went anywhere to form super teams.

I'm not saying LeBron won't eclipse Kobe.....but right now? I think it's very much debateable.

 

[DJ]

I've been watching the NBA for over 40 years and the closest thing I have seen to Lebron is Magic and Lebron is faster, more athletic and stronger. But, I just can't put someone with a losing record in the finals any higher than I have him right now.

Same here. I have him just outside the top 5, around 6-7. By the time he's done playing he could be top 3-4.

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

Lol, espn and fox. What a surprise

First two that popped up. It wouldn't take much work to find many others that come pretty close to the same.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

I agree to a point. Lebron does get bumped higher than he really should be at this point by a lot of folks and you are probably right that it has more to do with promoting the league and it's best player than actual resume's. I saw 2 lists where Lebron is listed as #2 all time on 1 and #3 all time on the other.

I have Lebron at #4 on my all time list. I've been watching the NBA for over 40 years and the closest thing I have seen to Lebron is Magic and Lebron is faster, more athletic and stronger. But, I just can't put someone with a losing record in the finals any higher than I have him right now.

Imo, he's definitely top 5, which I hate saying because I really don't like him at all. But I have to be honest about what I see.

Too many things are not in his favour for a "top 5" argument

- Him jumping from team to team to create "super teams"
- Losing finals record
- Playing in a weak conference
- His flopping, bitching and moaning
- Game 1 of the 2014 finals LOL

 

[Wamu]

Too many things are not in his favour for a "top 5" argument

- Him jumping from team to team to create "super teams"
- Losing finals record
- Playing in a weak conference
- His flopping, bitching and moaning
- Game 1 of the 2014 finals LOL

Wait a minute. Your # 55 you have Wilt listed in your all time top 5. He had a losing Finals record. So why give him a free pass on his Finals record when you hold it against LeBron?

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Wait a minute. Your # 55 you have Wilt listed in your all time top 5. He had a losing Finals record. So why give him a free pass on his Finals record when you hold it against LeBron?

The records he's broken and numbers he's put up warrant a top 5 place alone.

He hold 72 NBA records...

 

[trojanfan12]

Too many things are not in his favour for a "top 5" argument

- Him jumping from team to team to create "super teams"
- Losing finals record
- Playing in a weak conference
- His flopping, bitching and moaning
- Game 1 of the 2014 finals LOL

I don't hold the super teams thing against him much. I don't necessarily like it, but both times he was an FA and free to go where he wanted. I don't like the way he did it each time, but I have no problem with the fact that he did. I mean, in each case, he left for a better situation. People who criticize him for that must be people who wouldn't leave their current jobs for a better one.

Plus, Kobe once demanded a trade if the Lakers didn't get him some help. The difference between Kobe and Lebron? The Lakers addressed it and got him the help he asked for. In the modern era, it's always taken at least 2 superstars to win a title (except for the '05 Pistons). Lebron just went about getting paired with them a different way. His FO in Cleveland couldn't get him the help, so he did it himself.

The losing record in the finals is why I only have him at #4.

He can't control the talent level of the conference he plays in and it's not really his fault that some teams in his conference don't appear to want to try and compete with him right now (looking at you Celtics). Sure, he could have gone to the West, but why should he have to do that?

The flopping is really, really old, dead and tired. Especially him trying to claim he doesn't flop and the Lebroniacs and Cavs fans trying to act like he doesn't. As for the bitching and moaning...all superstars do that to some extent or other (except Kawhi). I mean, as much as I love and respect Timmy...dude doesn't think he ever committed a foul in his career. lol

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

I don't hold the super teams thing against him much. I don't necessarily like it, but both times he was an FA and free to go where he wanted. I don't like the way he did it each time, but I have no problem with the fact that he did. I mean, in each case, he left for a better situation. People who criticize him for that must be people who wouldn't leave their current jobs for a better one.

Plus, Kobe once demanded a trade if the Lakers didn't get him some help. The difference between Kobe and Lebron? The Lakers addressed it and got him the help he asked for. In the modern era, it's always taken at least 2 superstars to win a title (except for the '05 Pistons). Lebron just went about getting paired with them a different way. His FO in Cleveland couldn't get him the help, so he did it himself.

The losing record in the finals is why I only have him at #4.

He can't control the talent level of the conference he plays in and it's not really his fault that some teams in his conference don't appear to want to try and compete with him right now (looking at you Celtics). Sure, he could have gone to the West, but why should he have to do that?

The flopping is really, really old, dead and tired. Especially him trying to claim he doesn't flop and the Lebroniacs and Cavs fans trying to act like he doesn't. As for the bitching and moaning...all superstars do that to some extent or other (except Kawhi). I mean, as much as I love and respect Timmy...dude doesn't think he ever committed a foul in his career. lol

If he had stayed in Miami it would have been a completely different discussion. But the Heat had the right FO, the right team mates and was a top free agent destination. Had he stayed he would have easily had 5 or maybe even 6 rings in his career.

 

[Wamu]

The records he's broken and numbers he's put up warrant a top 5 place alone.

He hold 72 NBA records...

So what Wilt holds records? That's even more of a reason he should have gotten more than 2 rings. It's hilarious you choose to ignore his Finals record though.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

So what Wilt holds records? That's even more of a reason he should have gotten more than 2 rings. It's hilarious you choose to ignore his Finals record though.

Really? Because that's exactly what the cavs fans, even the closeted ones like yourself, seem to be doing too with lebron.

 

[trojanfan12]

If he had stayed in Miami it would have been a completely different discussion. But the Heat had the right FO, the right team mates and was a top free agent destination. Had he stayed he would have easily had 5 or maybe even 6 rings in his career.

Maybe. Remember, they were completely dismantled by the Spurs in his last finals appearance in Miami. Looking back at that series, I'm not sure how the Heat even managed to win 1 game. D-Wade was getting older and was injured every year. He was having to carry so much of the load, it was burning him out.

Granted, his load hasn't exactly lightened since he has been in Cleveland, but he had no way of knowing that would be the case. Personally, I think he made the right decision in both cases. He just had a fucked up way of doing it.

 

[Wamu]

Really? Because that's exactly what the cavs fans, even the closeted ones like yourself, seem to be doing too with lebron.

I'm not a Cavs fan. Keep telling yourself otherwise though. It's funny when a non Cavs fan disagrees w/ you you always call them Cavs fans. I have LeBron in my all time top 5 because of his all around game. And if he had a better Finals record I'd probably have him higher than 4th. My top 5 are...MJ, Magic, Kareem, LeBron & Bird.

 

[tlance]

In his prime, Kemp was absolutely a great player. Kemp was bigger, stronger and faster than Dray. Kemp wins that matchup. You're thinking of "Fat Kemp" at the end of his career. In his prime, he was a beast. As a Lakers fan, I hated that guy. lol

Shawn Kemp was not stronger than Draymond Green. Very few are. Green is 6-7, 230. Kemp was 6-10 230. Strength wise it isn't even close. As for speed, You could say is close, but Green is pretty damn fast. I doubt Kemp was faster.

Draymond is an elite defender, just like Payton. He would come a lot closer to shutting Down Kemp, who only once in his career averaged over 20 PPG than Payton would come to shutting down Curry. Like I said, Kemp was a very good player, but he wasn't great. He was not the type of player you could run your offense through, he was more of a finisher.

It is absolutely historical to me that anyone would say Payton would shut down Curry AND Green would have his way with Kemp.

Remember, the Warriors have been to 2 Finals and won 1. They are on their way to appearance number 3. There is a reason Seattle only made one appearance, and it isn't better competition.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

I'm not a Cavs fan. Keep telling yourself otherwise though. It's funny when a non Cavs fan disagrees w/ you you always call them Cavs fans.

Nope just you. And I recall that i'm not the only one who thinks so...

 

[trojanfan12]

So what Wilt holds records? That's even more of a reason he should have gotten more than 2 rings. It's hilarious you choose to ignore his Finals record though.

To be fair to Wilt, he was in a very similar situation to Jerry West. It was a completely different league back then.

Red Auerbach was able to put together a team of HOFers and keep them together. That's not a criticism, just a fact. They were probably more of a super team than the current Warriors.

So, while Wilt typically got the better of Russell head to head, he didn't have the teammates to overcome the rest of the Celtics lineup.

 

[tlance]

Shawn Kemp was not stronger than Draymond Green. Very few are. Green is 6-7, 230. Kemp was 6-10 230. Strength wise it isn't even close. As for speed, You could say is close, but Green is pretty damn fast. I doubt Kemp was faster.

Draymond is an elite defender, just like Payton. He would come a lot closer to shutting Down Kemp, who only once in his career averaged over 20 PPG than Payton would come to shutting down Curry. Like I said, Kemp was a very good player, but he wasn't great. He was not the type of player you could run your offense through, he was more of a finisher.

It is absolutely historical to me that anyone would say Payton would shut down Curry AND Green would have his way with Kemp.

Remember, the Warriors have been to 2 Finals and won 1. They are on their way to appearance number 3. There is a reason Seattle only made one appearance, and it isn't better competition.

Sorry, the should paragraph should read;

It is hysterical to me that anyone would say Payton would shit down Curry and Kemp would have his way with Green.

 

[trojanfan12]

Shawn Kemp was not stronger than Draymond Green. Very few are. Green is 6-7, 230. Kemp was 6-10 230.

Stopped reading. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[tlance]

To be fair to Wilt, he was in a very similar situation to Jerry West. It was a completely different league back then.

Red Auerbach was able to put together a team of HOFers and keep them together. That's not a criticism, just a fact. They were probably more of a super team than the current Warriors.

So, while Wilt typically got the better of Russell head to head, he didn't have the teammates to overcome the rest of the Celtics lineup.

You could say that LeBron is on a very similar position today against the Warriors.

Again why team records need to be taken with a grain of salt, not used for proof of individual superiority.

 

[tlance]

Stopped reading. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

LOL.

So to be clear, your position is that between 2 players who weigh exactly the same, the one who is 3 inches taller is stronger?

I have watched a lot of Warriors games and it is very difficult to move Green off a spot. Dude is aas strong as they come. You have to be when you routinely guard guys 4-6 inches taller than you.

 

[Wamu]

Nope just you. And I recall that i'm not the only one who thinks so...

It's pathetic on your part to insist I'm a Cavs fans because I don't have the same opinion of LeBron that you do. I've said in the past I'm not even a fan of his yet you have fooled yourself into believing I'm a Cavs fan because I don't agree w/ most of your gibberish.