Harden Best Player in the league?

[NBKLee]

WHA?


I guess he's not counting defense, or being a team player, or rings, or overall skill set, or height, or W.A.R or anything relevant.


Players I would rather have over Harden in no particular order

1. Bron
2. Durant
3. Steph, yes call me a homer
4. CP3
5. D12, yes that D12
6. K. Love
7. Aldridge
8. Paul George, pre injury
9. Melo, even though I think he's basically Harden + 4 inches
10. D. Rose

Thoughts from the peanut gallery

 

[CitySushi]

WHA?


I guess he's not counting defense, or being a team player, or rings, or overall skill set, or height, or W.A.R or anything relevant.


Players I would rather have over Harden in no particular order

1. Bron
2. Durant
3. Steph, yes call me a homer
4. CP3
5. D12, yes that D12
6. K. Love
7. Aldridge
8. Paul George, pre injury
9. Melo, even though I think he's basically Harden + 4 inches
10. D. Rose

Thoughts from the peanut gallery

I would add three guys Russell Westbrook, Blake Griffin and Anthony Davis to this list as well. If I were starting a franchise tomorrow, those three guys I would also choose ahead of Harden.

If Harden simply tried on defense and became an average defender, he could easily jump to the top 5-6, maybe as high as 3 if he became a good defender. But for as long as Lebron and Durant are in the NBA those two guys are always going to be 1 and 2 and it's not even close. CP3 also has a lock on the #3 spot right now as well.

 

[NBKLee]

I would add three guys Russell Westbrook, Blake Griffin and Anthony Davis to this list as well. If I were starting a franchise tomorrow, those three guys I would also choose ahead of Harden.

If Harden simply tried on defense and became an average defender, he could easily jump to the top 5-6, maybe as high as 3 if he became a good defender. But for as long as Lebron and Durant are in the NBA those two guys are always going to be 1 and 2 and it's not even close. CP3 also has a lock on the #3 spot right now as well.

Unibrow is solid, I can't argue with that one there.


RW , , something about him rubs me the wrong way. Sure he's physical, fearless, and invites contact, but when you have a player such as Durant on your team and refuse to defer to him on many occasions, it doesn't sit well with me.


Floppy Griffin - Freakish athlete , but when a player with his profile flops more than once a game, its just bush. No reason that guy can't play defense vs falling down like a bowling pin.

 

[mick7-1961]

 

[CitySushi]

Unibrow is solid, I can't argue with that one there.


RW , , something about him rubs me the wrong way. Sure he's physical, fearless, and invites contact, but when you have a player such as Durant on your team and refuse to defer to him on many occasions, it doesn't sit well with me.


Floppy Griffin - Freakish athlete , but when a player with his profile flops more than once a game, its just bush. No reason that guy can't play defense vs falling down like a bowling pin.

Understand both opinions on RW and Griffin.

My opinion on RW is the he's always been such a dynamic player he's hard to ignore. We haven't seen a PG as athletic as him ever in the NBA. He's really on another level in that aspect. Yes his teammate skills may leave something to be desired but on any team that did not have Lebron, Durant or CP3, he would easily be the centerpiece, franchise player. To me RW is a top 5 player when he's completely healthy.

Griffin just really impressed me with how he played last year. I'm still not a personal fan of his, but his game can't be ignored. When CP3 went down he really stepped it up and showed that he could carry a team. He's improved his post game, his mid range and even his one on one defense. Yes he flops, which I hate, but I'm hoping that goes down with his actual defense starting to get better. He won't need to rely on tactics to become a great player. I have the same feeling about him as I did with Karl Malone. I hate the guy, but I would love to have him on my team.

 

[NBKLee]

Understand both opinions on RW and Griffin.

My opinion on RW is the he's always been such a dynamic player he's hard to ignore. We haven't seen a PG as athletic as him ever in the NBA. He's really on another level in that aspect. Yes his teammate skills may leave something to be desired but on any team that did not have Lebron, Durant or CP3, he would easily be the centerpiece, franchise player. To me RW is a top 5 player when he's completely healthy.

Not going to dive deep into RW as a player, we sorta went into that in the Steph vs RW thread , but what I will say he there are a few PG's I would rather have than RW, in no particular order.

1. Steph
2. Tony Parker
3. Dragic
4. Lebron (should he choose just to play PG)
5. D. Rose
6. Lillard

RW to me has always been a bulldog, and he does that well, but does he run a team well? Maybe I haven't watched enough OKC games, but to me that team is nothing with Durant. Its going to be interesting to see how they cope with Sefolosha gone.

 

[CohanHater]

Not going to dive deep into RW as a player, we sorta went into that in the Steph vs RW thread , but what I will say he there are a few PG's I would rather have than RW, in no particular order.

1. Steph
2. Tony Parker
3. Dragic
4. Lebron (should he choose just to play PG)
5. D. Rose
6. Lillard

RW to me has always been a bulldog, and he does that well, but does he run a team well? Maybe I haven't watched enough OKC games, but to me that team is nothing with Durant. Its going to be interesting to see how they cope with Sefolosha gone.

How many 2 guards would you rather have then RW? I can't think of 1. He's probably the #3 point guard in the league and the top 2 guard. That puts him as the #1 guard in the league, IMO

 

[NBKLee]

How many 2 guards would you rather have then RW? I can't think of 1. He's probably the #3 point guard in the league and the top 2 guard. That puts him as the #1 guard in the league, IMO

I suppose it depends on who you count as a "two guard"

1. Harden
2. Kobe
3. Steph
4. Lillard
5. Joe Johnson
6. Wade
7. Klay
8. Gordon, Max conract, Haywardddd
9. Paul George , pre injury
10. D. ROse
11. DeRoazen
12. CP3

Just to name a few, they can play the two for some stretches, are they better than RW on any given night? SURE.

 

[CohanHater]

I suppose it depends on who you count as a "two guard"

1. Harden
2. Kobe
3. Steph
4. Lillard
5. Joe Johnson
6. Wade
7. Klay
8. Gordon, Max conract, Haywardddd
9. Paul George , pre injury
10. D. ROse
11. DeRoazen
12. CP3

Just to name a few, they can play the two for some stretches, are they better than RW on any given night? SURE.

Any given night, sure. Consistently, I'd say Steph is the only one on that list that you could make an argument to trade straight up for, and he's couldn't be a 2 consistently for an entire season.

 

[NBKLee]

Harden's "defense"

Another reason why I don't have Harden ranked as highly as many.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

I had a really hard time watching the FIBA games with Harden and Steph in the game at the same time. Harden never gave it a second thought to pass the ball to Curry, despite Curry's much better passing skills than Harden...like when they were starting a possible fast break.

I'm not sure if Harden's play on the FIBA team is reminiscent of how he plays on Houston, but I imagine it is even more so. I just hate how he forces fouls by throwing the ball and his arms while drving into a nearby defender. It's just not basketball if you ask me.

I was a bit disappointed in Steph's play in the FIBA games. I felt that he'd gotten really used to having the ball in his hands by playing PG for the Warriors, and that was basically taken away from him. Also, one could sense that he didn't feel comfortable keeping the ball too much and shooting and driving very much. Irving seems to thrive in these types of situations, like by winning the 3 pt contest 2 years ago, by winning MVP in FIBA and in last year's all star game. I'm looking forward to Steph getting back to the Warriors team and become his great self again. Wondering how his time with FIBA will affect him.

Also felt that there was something that the FIBA refs did not like with Steph's defense. he was constantly in foul trouble during FIBA, whereas he's not usually nearly in foul trouble in a normal GS game.

Sorry to change subjects there.

Greg

 

[CitySushi]

I had a really hard time watching the FIBA games with Harden and Steph in the game at the same time. Harden never gave it a second thought to pass the ball to Curry, despite Curry's much better passing skills than Harden...like when they were starting a possible fast break.

I'm not sure if Harden's play on the FIBA team is reminiscent of how he plays on Houston, but I imagine it is even more so. I just hate how he forces fouls by throwing the ball and his arms while drving into a nearby defender. It's just not basketball if you ask me.

I was a bit disappointed in Steph's play in the FIBA games. I felt that he'd gotten really used to having the ball in his hands by playing PG for the Warriors, and that was basically taken away from him. Also, one could sense that he didn't feel comfortable keeping the ball too much and shooting and driving very much. Irving seems to thrive in these types of situations, like by winning the 3 pt contest 2 years ago, by winning MVP in FIBA and in last year's all star game. I'm looking forward to Steph getting back to the Warriors team and become his great self again. Wondering how his time with FIBA will affect him.

Also felt that there was something that the FIBA refs did not like with Steph's defense. he was constantly in foul trouble during FIBA, whereas he's not usually nearly in foul trouble in a normal GS game.

Sorry to change subjects there.

Greg

Harden and Irving are both guys who dominate the game with the ball in their hands. It's not that they choose to ignore other players, but they're not accustomed to making a quick pass or looking for someone else to create a play for. Both guys are the go-to premier scorers for their teams.

Harden is absolutely necessary to the team in having a guy you can give the ball to and go get a bucket. I'm not a fan of his game either, but you can't deny that it's effective. Harden plays the exact same way with the Rockets. You want him for exactly what he brings to the team, an ability to score. You take the good with the bad.

Steph was definitely out of his comfort zone with the team. He was asked to play off the ball, when his typical usage rate is particularly high. With the offense Jackson employed, Steph was given no leash and relied upon to just make things happen. That sort of offense doesn't work in international play, with a team of superstars. Coach K asked Steph to utilize his 3 point scoring ability by playing off the ball more, which he tried to do, but again is not his strength.

Conversely Klay had a great tournament. It's because the role he was asked to play wasn't much different at all from the role he has with the Warriors right now. Offensively he was a pick and pop player. He came off screens. He drove occasionally when he had the chance, but mostly was hitting open 3's and mid range jumpers. Defensively he was asked to guard the best wing player when he was in as well. He had a fantastic tournament.

Lastly, let's be real, Steph played horrible defense. The international game is called much differently, but Steph put himself in really bad positions. He continually made lazy plays, including reaching fouls instead of moving his feet to get in front of defenders. His defensive level was minimal at best.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

"Lastly, let's be real, Steph played horrible defense. The international game is called much differently, but Steph put himself in really bad positions. He continually made lazy plays, including reaching fouls instead of moving his feet to get in front of defenders. His defensive level was minimal at best"

I think that Steph played the same kind of defense he plays in the NBA. While he's never going to be a stud on defense, I think he gives the energy always. He's not the type of player to coast just because it's defense. He's a high character guy. I just think that the refs call things a bit differently and what he was able to get away with in the NBA they were calling fouls in FIBA. Also, when he plays on the Warriors, his normal type of defense is to force a player who might have the advantage over him to help defense, but maybe the other guys he was forcing his man to weren't expecting him to force his man towards them. Maybe Curry was just supposed to play the man-to-man Duke type of defense that Coach K employs at Duke.

As for Klay, as you said, what they asked of him was exactly what he was used to giving with the Warriors, so it wasn't something he had to figure out and he was solid on both sides of the ball.

 

[CitySushi]

"Lastly, let's be real, Steph played horrible defense. The international game is called much differently, but Steph put himself in really bad positions. He continually made lazy plays, including reaching fouls instead of moving his feet to get in front of defenders. His defensive level was minimal at best"

I think that Steph played the same kind of defense he plays in the NBA. While he's never going to be a stud on defense, I think he gives the energy always. He's not the type of player to coast just because it's defense. He's a high character guy. I just think that the refs call things a bit differently and what he was able to get away with in the NBA they were calling fouls in FIBA. Also, when he plays on the Warriors, his normal type of defense is to force a player who might have the advantage over him to help defense, but maybe the other guys he was forcing his man to weren't expecting him to force his man towards them. Maybe Curry was just supposed to play the man-to-man Duke type of defense that Coach K employs at Duke.

As for Klay, as you said, what they asked of him was exactly what he was used to giving with the Warriors, so it wasn't something he had to figure out and he was solid on both sides of the ball.

In general, I think Steph has pretty bad defense. His deficiencies are masked by the defensive schemes the Warriors employ, which were magnified in the FIBA tournament. I know he's not a world class athlete, but much of defense is positioning and effort. Many times Steph is not in a great defensive position when on ball defending and when his man goes by him, he resorts to reaching and/or swiping at the ball. In the NBA he may get away with more of those calls, but they are still fouls.

The defense Team USA played, didn't fit well towards Steph funneling his man to help. The defense relied mostly upon switching and was mostly a man to man with a few zone principles. I think on the switches is where Steph got caught up, where the offensive player is already in motion with the ball.

You don't have to be a great athlete to be a good defender (although it does help if you are). Steph needs to work on his defensive positioning. If he's in a better position, he'll have to resort to reaching and swiping less often. Hopefully this is a part of his game he can improve upon.

 

[Wamu]

Kobe's top 10...


10. Kobe Bryant
9. Kobe Bryant
8. Kobe Bryant
7. Kobe Bryant
6. Kobe Bryant
5. Kobe Bryant
4. Kobe Bryant
3. Kobe Bryant
2. Kobe Bryant
1. Kobe Bryant

 

[NBKLee]

In general, I think Steph has pretty bad defense. His deficiencies are masked by the defensive schemes the Warriors employ, which were magnified in the FIBA tournament. I know he's not a world class athlete, but much of defense is positioning and effort. Many times Steph is not in a great defensive position when on ball defending and when his man goes by him, he resorts to reaching and/or swiping at the ball. In the NBA he may get away with more of those calls, but they are still fouls.

The defense Team USA played, didn't fit well towards Steph funneling his man to help. The defense relied mostly upon switching and was mostly a man to man with a few zone principles. I think on the switches is where Steph got caught up, where the offensive player is already in motion with the ball.

You don't have to be a great athlete to be a good defender (although it does help if you are). Steph needs to work on his defensive positioning. If he's in a better position, he'll have to resort to reaching and swiping less often. Hopefully this is a part of his game he can improve upon.

Could probably sum it up by saying, Klay masked some of Stephs' weakenesses. Steph is all world on offense though, and I wouldn't trade Steph and his contract (unless the right deal came along)

 

[rayhl111]

I hope Steph can add a little more muscle and learn how to body his man on D a little better. Steve Kerr who was a bad athlete played pretty solid defense. It can be done. Rick Fox another lousy athlete was a decent defender. I hope SC steps up his defensive intensity. Livingston is good defender.

 

[rayhl111]

Move Joe Johnson down, DeRozan up.