Series Thread: Golden State Warriors vs. Cleveland Cavaliers NBA Finals Thread

[trojanfan12]

to be fair to Lebron he should be giving a pass for 2 of the finals

If we're going to play that game:

Magic should get a pass for the 2 finals losses that the Lakers suffered that are directly attributable to injuries.

Kareem should also get a pass for 2 of his finals losses for the same reason as Magic.

Bird spent the last few years of his career in traction due to back injuries. If not for those, he might have a couple more rings.

Kobe should get a pass for one of his finals losses because some folks are saying that if Karl Malone doesn't get hurt, the Lakers beat the Pistons.

Sorry, doesn't work like that. You get there with what you get there with and you live with the results. We don't go back and give "extra credit" or "passes" just to make a player look better.

 

[trojanfan12]

Completely right. This is the situation. I disagree with it. I think it is stupid. But the majority of fans and sports commentators/writers don't think like me. Replace Jordan and LeBron on those title runs and I believe Jordan would stand at 3-2, and then 3-3 after this year. But that is an impossible thing to prove.

I've said this for a few years and I stand by it. For LeBron to ever pass Jordan he is going to have to have 5 rings. If he has to go to 11 finals to get those 5 rings, so be it. At some point the sheer number of finals (as long as some are won) will become a resume enhancer. But when it is 6-0 vs 2-4 or 3-3, it will be discounted. Unfairly in my opinion, but discounted none the less.

If Lebron can pass MJ with only 5 rings and he does it in 11 finals trips, he would be 5-6. If we're going to use that scenario:

Magic went to 9 finals and finished 5-4. Why is he not bumped over MJ?

Kareem went to 10 finals and was 6-4. Why does he not get bumped over MJ?

Kobe has been to 7 finals and went 5-2. Why does he not get bumped over MJ?

In short, why are we looking to give Lebron a different standard than other all-time greats?

 

[Robotech]

For the record, don't take my last post as me saying LeBron>Jordan. I think Jordan is the GOAT.

But use the mountain of data that actually supports that argument, not lazy, superficial, cliches

C'mon, now, you're talking about a poster who is not capable of putting together a logical argument.

 

[Robotech]

If Lebron can pass MJ with only 5 rings and he does it in 11 finals trips, he would be 5-6. If we're going to use that scenario:

Magic went to 9 finals and finished 5-4. Why is he not bumped over MJ?

Kareem went to 10 finals and was 6-4. Why does he not get bumped over MJ?

Kobe has been to 7 finals and went 5-2. Why does he not get bumped over MJ?

In short, why are we looking to give Lebron a different standard than other all-time greats?

Putting the first two guys you mentioned over MJ is not an unreasonable opinion.

 

[Flauge]

If Lebron can pass MJ with only 5 rings and he does it in 11 finals trips, he would be 5-6. If we're going to use that scenario:

Magic went to 9 finals and finished 5-4. Why is he not bumped over MJ?

Kareem went to 10 finals and was 6-4. Why does he not get bumped over MJ?

Kobe has been to 7 finals and went 5-2. Why does he not get bumped over MJ?

In short, why are we looking to give Lebron a different standard than other all-time greats?

I dont think we do look at it differently at all. Finals appearances is only one factor on a list of things we use to determine greats. If finals wins and appearances were all that matters than Bill Russell is the greatest, yet we don't bump him over Mike J. Jordan doing 2 threepeats. Winning all those MVPs. All those finals MVPs. 30+ ppg seasons (only like 15 people have done this.. the list is a lot smaller than I thought). LeBron also leads teams in ppg, rebounds, assists. He will likely finish his career as a top 5 scorer (possibly #1), top 10 assists, top 20 boards. Likely 5 or more MVPs. All these things factor in. But to me he still needs 5 rings before he can pass Jordan.

But I do think Magic being to 9 finals is a resume enhancer. I think that is insanely impressive same with Kareem and Kobe. I don't discount those one bit.

 

[trojanfan12]

Putting the first two guys you mentioned over MJ is not an unreasonable opinion.

Yet, I've only seen Magic rated over MJ rarely and Kareem usually doesn't even get a mention.

 

[bksballer89]

If we're going to play that game:

Magic should get a pass for the 2 finals losses that the Lakers suffered that are directly attributable to injuries.

Kareem should also get a pass for 2 of his finals losses for the same reason as Magic.

Bird spent the last few years of his career in traction due to back injuries. If not for those, he might have a couple more rings.

Kobe should get a pass for one of his finals losses because some folks are saying that if Karl Malone doesn't get hurt, the Lakers beat the Pistons.

Sorry, doesn't work like that. You get there with what you get there with and you live with the results. We don't go back and give "extra credit" or "passes" just to make a player look better.

At the end of the day when LeBron career is over I don't think any logical person will slam for getting swept by the Spurs with a d-league supporting cast or losing to the 67 win Warriors in 6 or 7 games without Love or Irving. He will mainly get slammed for his performance 2011 vs Dallas.

You aren't beating any 67 team with your 2nd and 3rd best players out in a best of 7 series. Jordan wouldn't be able to do it either

 

[Robotech]

Completely right. This is the situation. I disagree with it. I think it is stupid. But the majority of fans and sports commentators/writers don't think like me. Replace Jordan and LeBron on those title runs and I believe Jordan would stand at 3-2, and then 3-3 after this year. But that is an impossible thing to prove.

I've said this for a few years and I stand by it. For LeBron to ever pass Jordan he is going to have to have 5 rings. If he has to go to 11 finals to get those 5 rings, so be it. At some point the sheer number of finals (as long as some are won) will become a resume enhancer. But when it is 6-0 vs 2-4 or 3-3, it will be discounted. Unfairly in my opinion, but discounted none the less.

I gotta agree with this. It's a body of work thing.

 

[Robotech]

Yet, I've only seem Magic rated over MJ rarely and Kareem usually doesn't even get a mention.

Probably because Magic was the bigger star when they played together and Kareem was in the latter (albeit very long latter part) part of his career. However, Kareem is still the all-time leading scorer and that alone gives one a reasonable argument to put him as GOAT. Plus, he was responsible for making dunking illegal in the NCAA for years.

 

[Robotech]

Yet, I've only seem Magic rated over MJ rarely and Kareem usually doesn't even get a mention.

Magic definitely deserves strong consideration, too. I still think Michael is number one, but Magic and Kareem aren't that far behind, and I don't rank them behind Michael because of their Finals losses.

 

[trojanfan12]

I dont think we do look at it differently at all. Finals appearances is only one factor on a list of things we use to determine greats. If finals wins and appearances were all that matters than Bill Russell is the greatest, yet we don't bump him over Mike J. Jordan doing 2 threepeats. Winning all those MVPs. All those finals MVPs. 30+ ppg seasons (only like 15 people have done this.. the list is a lot smaller than I thought). LeBron also leads teams in ppg, rebounds, assists. He will likely finish his career as a top 5 scorer (possibly #1), top 10 assists, top 20 boards. Likely 5 or more MVPs. All these things factor in. But to me he still needs 5 rings before he can pass Jordan.

But I do think Magic being to 9 finals is a resume enhancer. I think that is insanely impressive same with Kareem and Kobe. I don't discount those one bit.

Kareem:

All-time leading scorer (will likely never be touched).
6x NBA Champion
6x League MVP
2x Finals MVP
19x All Star selection
10x All-NBA First team
5x All-NBA Second team
5x All Defensive First team
6x All Defensive Second team
Rookie of the Year
2x Scoring champion
4x NBA blocks leader
1x NBA rebounding champion
Number retired by 2 different teams

Let me know when anyone touches that resume.

Also, my point was't the number of finals they've made it to. My point was that people want to give Lebron a "pass" on 2 of his finals losses, but don't want to do the same with other greats.

Basically, the argument is, well if Lebron had a better supporting cast in his first trip and if the Cavs weren't injured in this finals he'd be looking at 4 rings instead of 2.

If we give others that same pass: Magic has 7 rings, Kareem has 8 rings, Kobe has 6 rings and maybe Bird has 5.

 

[Flauge]

Kareem:

All-time leading scorer (will likely never be touched).
6x NBA Champion
6x League MVP
2x Finals MVP
19x All Star selection
10x All-NBA First team
5x All-NBA Second team
5x All Defensive First team
6x All Defensive Second team
Rookie of the Year
2x Scoring champion
4x NBA blocks leader
1x NBA rebounding champion
Number retired by 2 different teams

Let me know when anyone touches that resume.

Mike Jordan

• 6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
• 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991–1992, 1996, 1998)
• 14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
• 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
• 10× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
• All-NBA Second Team (1985)
• NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
• 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
• NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
• NBA All-Rookie First Team (1985)
• 10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
• 3× NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993)
• 2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1987–1988)
• NBA all-time playoff scoring leader

LeBron James

• 2× NBA Champion (2012–2013)
• 2× NBA Finals MVP (2012–2013)
• 4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009–2010, 2012–2013)
• 11× NBA All-Star (2005–2015)
• 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
• 9× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2015)
• 2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
• 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
• NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
• NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
• NBA All-Rookie First Team (2004)
• NBA scoring champion (2008)
  
  His career numbers are not over.. and this doesn't stop here.

 

[Flauge]

Also I would argue that Kareem accomplishments are ranked very highly in all time lists. I really cant see anyone moving him down past maybe #5. I would honestly probably put him around #3.

 

[trojanfan12]

At the end of the day when LeBron career is over I don't think any logical person will slam for getting swept by the Spurs with a d-league supporting cast or losing to the 67 win Warriors in 6 or 7 games without Love or Irving. He will mainly get slammed for his performance 2011 vs Dallas.

You aren't beating any 67 team with your 2nd and 3rd best players out in a best of 7 series. Jordan wouldn't be able to do it either

Logical people wouldn't hold injuries against Magic, Kareem or Bird. Yet, I don't see anyone giving any of those guys a pass. I don't even see fans of those players or their teams suggesting it. Yet, we're supposed to give Lebron a pass?

Oh, and none of those other players ever stood in the corner during any NBA finals like Lebron did against the Mavs. In fact, when the Lakers lost Kareem going into game 6 of the finals in Magic's rookie season, he played all 5 positions, scored 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists and 3 steals. As a ROOKIE.

 

[trojanfan12]

Mike Jordan

• 6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
• 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991–1992, 1996, 1998)
• 14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
• 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
• 10× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
• All-NBA Second Team (1985)
• NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
• 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
• NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
• NBA All-Rookie First Team (1985)
• 10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
• 3× NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993)
• 2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1987–1988)
• NBA all-time playoff scoring leader

LeBron James

• 2× NBA Champion (2012–2013)
• 2× NBA Finals MVP (2012–2013)
• 4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009–2010, 2012–2013)
• 11× NBA All-Star (2005–2015)
• 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008)
• 9× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2015)
• 2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
• 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
• NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
• NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
• NBA All-Rookie First Team (2004)
• NBA scoring champion (2008)
  
  His career numbers are not over.. and this doesn't stop here.

And yet, Kareem still has a better resume' than MJ and Lebron will never touch Kareem's. He'll be lucky to catch MJ.

 

[Hambombs]

The Warriors have won 80+ games this season (including playoffs). Every team that has done that has won the title. The Warriors by defensive/offensive efficiencies are an all time type team. But they have looked pathetic this series against a team that is missing 2 of it's 3 top players and likely 3 of top 5 if you count the Sideshow Bob injury early in the season. Honestly, the Cavs have made the Warriors look like paper tigers and Curry should hand back his MVP, or just bring it to game 5 and give it to LeBron.

I still say the Warriors win this thing. Likely in 6. But right now, nothing is certain, and if the lose this series it has to go down as one of the biggest upsets in recent in NBA playoff history.

I think part of the reason for them looking like paper tigers is because they didn't take the cavs seriously after they went up 1-0 when they beat a healthy lebron, Irving together. They thought they could just relax

 

[Flauge]

And yet, Kareem still has a better resume' than MJ and Lebron will never touch Kareem's. He'll be lucky to catch MJ.

I disagree with you about Kareem's resume being better than Jordans. Kareem 2 finals MVPs. 6 titles. Meaning more often than not in the finals, someone else was the better player on his team. Jordan was 6 for 6. Jordan's resume and Kareems are similar. Kareem played longer.. has more all-star appearances and more second team NBA nods. Jordan was a scoring champion 10 times. 7 times in a row.

 

[trojanfan12]

I disagree with you about Kareem's resume being better than Jordans. Kareem 2 finals MVPs. 6 titles. Meaning more often than not in the finals, someone else was the better player on his team. Jordan was 6 for 6. Jordan's resume and Kareems are similar. Kareem played longer.. has more all-star appearances and more second team NBA nods. Jordan was a scoring champion 10 times. 7 times in a row.

MJ played in a watered down league compared to Kareem. MJ's reign came after expansion, so it can be argued that Kareem was facing tougher competition. Kareem is also the all-time scoring leader, despite being a center and relying on others to get him the ball. Kareem also has 1 of 2 NBA records that we will likely never see broken (Wilt's 100 point game being the other).

Also, one of Kareem's finals MVP's came in 1985. He was 38 years old.

 

[Flauge]

I am not convinced expansion waters down the league. To me, it is harder to win a title today with 30 teams than when Bill Russell was doing vs 10.

I am not arguing Kareem isn't great. Right now, in my list he would be #3 behind MJ and Magic.. #4 would be bird. But honestly I think Kareem could be as high as 2 and as low as 5. Anything outside that is a bit ridiculous. LeBron isn't in my top 5 yet.. but is knocking on the door. I have to let his career finish out so it could be looked at as a complete work. But of the current crop of NBA players, LeBron is the only one with a legit shot at passing these legends.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

1. I don't know any player or fan base that would rather lose in round 1 vs round 4.
2. In a best of 7 series, the better team wins.
3. The best player in the series, doesn't have to be on the better team ( as we are more than likely seeing this year).