Game #74 Bruins v.s No need to practice no more Sharks 7:30pm

[Cmon_WTF]

I think it's not so much that he is loved, but not maligned. Cmon and kork, have defended his play as effective in shutting down the opposition, and others have left him alone. I feel like Im the only one who sees his play as an actual detractor. I feel almost any other guy who plays like he has would be facing a chorus of shit, but nearly no one has been on the guy and multiple people have defended him.

that's where my surprise was from.

I have no like or dislike towards Moore. All I do is defend him from criticism that I view is undeserved. If he plays poorly, which he has on a couple of occasions, I post to that effect. But when he plays well but is still getting criticized because he's not scoring then yes I'll defend him.

Would it surprise you to know that in this game Moore had better possession and offensive zone time numbers than Pavelski whom you claim played great?

 

[Cbrower91]

I Keep forgetting sarcasm doesn't exist on the internets

 

[abaskin18]

I have no like or dislike towards Moore. All I do is defend him from criticism that I view is undeserved. If he plays poorly, which he has on a couple of occasions, I post to that effect. But when he plays well but is still getting criticized because he's not scoring then yes I'll defend him.

Would it surprise you to know that in this game Moore had better possession and offensive zone time numbers than Pavelski whom you claim played great?

Those numbers don't support his claim making them misleading and ultimately meaningless.

 

[sjrules99]

Let's see, how about the goalie. If the only way a goal is scored is by a player is banking it off the goalie from behind the net it tells me that everyone on the ice is doing their job except the goalie. If Niemi isn't doing his best stop, drop, and roll, fire drill manuver that goal is never scored.

Chara is Handzus' player to cover until he goes below the goal line by the net then he becomes Demer's responsibility. Handzus' went down to the ice to prevent a cross ice pass in front of the net forcing Chara down that low. At that point it's on Demers to prevent Chara from coming out front with the puck and block a pass if possible. Because the Sharks coaching staff wants their players to play a read-and-react low pressure style defense Demers stays next to the goal post giving Chara time to make his move. The dmen aren't always going to be able to block the pass attempt out front but at the same time they are not responsible for Niemi's foundering on the ice.

There's only one player you can blame for that goal and it's Niemi. Everyone else on the ice was doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing.

I just watched the replay of the whole play and the way I saw it was that the initial cross-ice pass which led to the great scoring chance shot that went wide started the whole thing. That wide shot which forced nemo to begin to scramble was partly handzus guarding no one and part moore gliding back in the defensive zone. From center ice the guy driving wide (eventually took the pass) was skating hard and moore simply pointed to the D telling them to take him when he should have been busting back himself.

he was totally not moving his feet and set the whole thing in motion.

of course, I do agree that nemo was flopping for a bit longer than needed. however, that line was lucky they didnt score on the initial shot or the rebound off the back boards beside the net.

 

[sjrules99]

I have no like or dislike towards Moore. All I do is defend him from criticism that I view is undeserved. If he plays poorly, which he has on a couple of occasions, I post to that effect. But when he plays well but is still getting criticized because he's not scoring then yes I'll defend him.

Would it surprise you to know that in this game Moore had better possession and offensive zone time numbers than Pavelski whom you claim played great?

Well, with all possession, his entire line zues, mitchell and moore combined for 1 shot in 15 mins each. I ont know what stat source you use for that claim or how that stat is kept, but clearly its not creating much. For a guy who you say plays so much time in the offensive zone, why would the shot total be so low and the minuses be so high?

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Breaking through the center of the ice Mitchell and Handzus are responsible for #67 the puck carrier until it enters the Sharks zone. Braun is responsible for the forward breaking down the center of the ice and on the far side Demers is responsible for the far side winger. Moore's duties at that point is to hang back and cover the weak side point man until the play goes down low then he should collapse to the center of the ice to cover the high slot, which he does and prevents Chara from taking the shot there. The only breakdown on that play is Handzus having poor stick position and Demers having poor gap control to allow that cross ice pass to get to the far winger.

 

[filosofy29]

I think it's not so much that he is loved, but not maligned. Cmon and kork, have defended his play as effective in shutting down the opposition, and others have left him alone. I feel like Im the only one who sees his play as an actual detractor. I feel almost any other guy who plays like he has would be facing a chorus of shit, but nearly no one has been on the guy and multiple people have defended him.

that's where my surprise was from.

I think it's because you fall victim all too often with confirmation bias (which I am 100% guilty on too with Thornton btw ) against certain players. People merely point out that somebody/Moore is not as bad as you're saying they are and all you take it that posters "love" somebody/Moore.

He hasn't played all that well (and nobody to my knowledge has said he has), but you harp on certain players incessantly.....then people come to his aide. For you, games/stats are taken in, then days become weeks and then months. So this horribly soft goal by Niemi (I used to play goalie before I switched to center.....he was on the ice for close to 5 seconds and still stayed in a position for the puck to be banked in off of his chest from a pretty sharp angle behind the goal line.....) attributes to the -1 for Moore, Mitchell and Handzus. Problem is, days and weeks will pass and that soft goal by Nemo (which to your credit you've admitted was soft) is going to be completely forgotten by then and the stats are going to be compiled by you. All of a sudden, that -1 might as well be Zus, Mitchell and Moore all laying on the ice out of position while Chara rips a slapper top shelf that Nemo had no chance on. Then, after that, months will go by. Even with the entire team playing poorly, those -1's and -2's will be attributed to the only reason why the Sharks lost. It had nothing to do with Joe and Patty's lack of desire, Pavelski and Clowes inability to stay on their feet while in the offensive zone on the attack, Couture hitting the post, Murray and Boyle struggling on the PK, Nemo's rebound spitting right out to the slot, etc......it was ALL the Bottom 6 getting outplayed.

Have you seen 1 thread or post saying "we should re-sign Moore", "Moore has been an excellent acquisition", "who is this Moore guy, he's awesome", etc.??? If so, my bad, I must have missed them.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Well, with all possession, his entire line zues, mitchell and moore combined for 1 shot in 15 mins each. I ont know what stat source you use for that claim or how that stat is kept, but clearly its not creating much. For a guy who you say plays so much time in the offensive zone, why would the shot total be so low and the minuses be so high?

Moore attemped 5 shots, 3 blocked 2 missed the net, Burns attempted 3 shots with that line on the ice, Braun had 3 shots, Demers 1, Boyle had 1 shot and 1 attempt (Blocked by Moore). The forward group may have only regestered one shot on goal but that line had their chances and produced the 2nd most shot attempts behind the Couture line.

 

[rares]

Scoring Chances: Game 74 v. Boston - Fear The Fin

Yep, pretty terrible game overall by Moore/Handzus/Mitchell (looking at scoring chances and other fun "advanced" stats -- scroll down after all the charts for links).

PS. The FTF people post a similar thread after every game... so you can quickly have a deeper look into who sucked/played good and why... at least, (way) better than just looking at +/- or a highlight you saw here and there, etc.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Scoring Chances: Game 74 v. Boston - Fear The Fin

Yep, pretty terrible game overall by Moore/Handzus/Mitchell (looking at scoring chances and other fun "advanced" stats -- scroll down after all the charts for links).

PS. The FTF people post a similar thread after every game... so you can quickly have a deeper look into who sucked/played good and why... at least, (way) better than just looking at +/- or a highlight you saw here and there, etc.

Great post Rares. I didn't check the 3rd line vs. 3rd line match up. It's interesting to see the Boston 3rd line was a +3 on scoring chances against the Sharks 3rd line while having less possession/offensive zone time.

 

[sjrules99]

Great post Rares. I didn't check the 3rd line vs. 3rd line match up. It's interesting to see the Boston 3rd line was a +3 on scoring chances against the Sharks 3rd line while having less possession/offensive zone time.

Moore and mitchell were -5 in scoring chances. I saw it exactly that way, and I'm not in any way surprised. Im also not surprised that it was the boton 3rd line depth guys who were lighting up moore/mitchell because that is their usual matchup.

the pavs line dominated lucic's line which is why I was posting what I did.

the whole offensive zone time or whatever stat is useless. Clearly, the sharks 3rd line has been whooped game in and game out and has been the main cause of struggles.

 

[rares]

Haha.. thanks, Cmon.. I (sometimes!) try to be helpful! :p

Also, this is a good read for those not familiar with Corsi/Fenwick stuff who want to learn (credit goes to whomever posted it on the general boards a few days ago):

Drance Numbers: The Official PITB Advanced Stat Glossary

(ignore the Canucks-specific bits.. it's a Canucks blog...)

 

[sjrules99]

btw, mitchell/moore with -3/4 vs la too, and I bet against anaheim as well, though it doesnt seem to be there.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Moore and mitchell were -5 in scoring chances. I saw it exactly that way, and I'm not in any way surprised. Im also not surprised that it was the boton 3rd line depth guys who were lighting up moore/mitchell because that is their usual matchup.

the pavs line dominated lucic's line which is why I was posting what I did.

the whole offensive zone time or whatever stat is useless. Clearly, the sharks 3rd line has been whooped game in and game out and has been the main cause of struggles.

On average the 3rd line has been matching up against one of the opposing teams top two scoring lines a little more than 50% of the time. This game it was 13 shifts againts either Krecji or Segin and 7 shifts against the 3rd line at ES. A few times with the Winnik-Mitchell-Moore line that % was much higher and when it was Ferriero-Mitchell-Moore that % was much lower. While 3rd line vs. 3rd line is a regular match-up it is not who they are most commonly on the ice against.

Pavelski's line only match up against the Lucic line for the 1st 10 minutes of the game. After that they were only on the ice against each other 3 times for the rest of the game. It was pretty much Havlat's line that dominated whomever they were put out against. I'm surprised the Thornton line was only a -1 in scoring chances against Segin's line because they got murdered most of the night with that match up.

 

[SJVP408]

Haha.. thanks, Cmon.. I (sometimes!) try to be helpful! :p

Also, this is a good read for those not familiar with Corsi/Fenwick stuff who want to learn (credit goes to whomever posted it on the general boards a few days ago):

Drance Numbers: The Official PITB Advanced Stat Glossary

(ignore the Canucks-specific bits.. it's a Canucks blog...)

I really enjoy those stats and just started getting into them this season. It's been posted before, but BEHIND THE NET: Hockey Analysis and Statistics [new host] has all these advanced stats to digest.

All these advanced stats, combined with watching the game, gives you a great idea of how the coaches are using the players and how the players are performing against the opposition.

If you can't watch a game but want to know how players did, you almost have to look up these advanced stats. Hockey, by far, can have the most misleading stats of the four major sports. In baseball, if a guy hits for a good batting %, good % with RISP, on-base %, you know he's having a good year. Pitchers with their WHIP and ERA. Basketball, it's the PPG avg, shooting %, turnovers. Baseketball also just adopted the +/- not too long ago. I'd consider football a case where the stats don't always tell the whole story. But in hockey, there are so many circumstances that can alter a player's stats that the basic stats alone tell very little.

If rares' link didn't make your mind blowup, this one might:

Frequently Asked Questions about Statistical Analysis in the NHL - Arctic Ice Hockey

 

[Cbrower91]

who gives a flying fuck about minute statistics that the average buzzed hockey fan doesnt follow or knows exist, they won. It's pretty much all that matters at this point

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I really enjoy those stats and just started getting into them this season. It's been posted before, but BEHIND THE NET: Hockey Analysis and Statistics [new host] has all these advanced stats to digest.

All these advanced stats, combined with watching the game, gives you a great idea of how the coaches are using the players and how the players are performing against the opposition.

If you can't watch a game but want to know how players did, you almost have to look up these advanced stats. Hockey, by far, can have the most misleading stats of the four major sports. In baseball, if a guy hits for a good batting %, good % with RISP, on-base %, you know he's having a good year. Pitchers with their WHIP and ERA. Basketball, it's the PPG avg, shooting %, turnovers. Baseketball also just adopted the +/- not too long ago. I'd consider football a case where the stats don't always tell the whole story. But in hockey, there are so many circumstances that can alter a player's stats that the basic stats alone tell very little.

If rares' link didn't make your mind blowup, this one might:

Frequently Asked Questions about Statistical Analysis in the NHL - Arctic Ice Hockey

Advanced stats can be a bit misleading as well. When viewed as a group like the combined stats for a full line or a D pairing they are fairly relible. When viewed at an individual player level they tend to reflect more about the players around him than that individual himself.

Advanced stats like Corsi, Qualcomp, Corsi rel QoC, etc. were designed to be comparitive stats though are very rarely used as such. For example you'd look at what other players advanced stats look like with a certain player on the ice with them as opposed to without to get a true picture of that players ability level.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

who gives a flying fuck about minute statistics that the average buzzed hockey fan doesnt follow or knows exist, they won. It's pretty much all that matters at this point

I do, but then again I probably use them quite a bit more than the average hockey fan. Lol.

 

[SJVP408]

who gives a flying fuck about minute statistics that the average buzzed hockey fan doesnt follow or knows exist, they won. It's pretty much all that matters at this point

I like to look deeper than just wins and losses. I like finding out about how lines are being deployed. Which players coaches lean on in what situations. So yeah I give a flying fuck, whatever the fuck that means.

 

[Cbrower91]

I like to look deeper than just wins and losses. I like finding out about how lines are being deployed. Which players coaches lean on in what situations. So yeah I give a flying fuck, whatever the fuck that means.

I normally do to at this point as a fan im just happy they are winnning and almost look desperate for the first time in about a decade