Future HOFers?

[DragonfromTO]

and please tell us why he isn't "borderline"? if he isn't "borderline" in your eyes, then your blind.

250 wins....(might be hard for any modern day pitcher to get over 250 wins anymore)

18 yr career...2500 k's....postseason number that rival anything David Ortiz has put up....

His post season stats combined with his regular season stats....will get him in the HOF.

3.81 postseason ERA and 4.06 World Series ERA? These are jaw dropping numbers?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and please tell us why he isn't "borderline"? if he isn't "borderline" in your eyes, then your blind.

250 wins....(might be hard for any modern day pitcher to get over 250 wins anymore)

18 yr career...2500 k's....postseason number that rival anything David Ortiz has put up....

His post season stats combined with his regular season stats....will get him in the HOF.

Look at his numbers they are not as good as you think they are:
162 game average: 17-10, 3.85 ERA(career ERA),158 Ks, 1.351 WHIP(career WHIP).

He only had 9 of his 18 seasons with an ERA under 4, and only 4 of those seasons was his ERA better than 3.5... He only once in his career had a better whip than 1.2...

His playoff numbers- dont get confused, he has pitched the most games thats why he has 19 playoff wins... But he also has 11 playoff losses, with a 3.81 ERA and 1.305 WHIP...

He was never even the Yankees number one pitcher... He was always either the 2 or 3...

Dont get me wrong i am a huge andy pettite fan, and wouldnt want many others pitching when it mattered, but to call him a HOF is kind of a Joke... He is not even a borderline HOF...


Plus 250 wins is an impressive accomplishment, but it is not 300... 300 is the milestone for pitchers... and why do you say that it is going to be too hard for others to ever hit 250 wins??

It is not like Pettite pitched over 36 games ever in his career... that is the normal amount in a 5 man rotation... We just need a pitcher to go 15+ seasons like Pettite did...

 

[steveringo]

Look at his numbers they are not as good as you think they are:
162 game average: 17-10, 3.85 ERA(career ERA),158 Ks, 1.351 WHIP(career WHIP).

He only had 9 of his 18 seasons with an ERA under 4, and only 4 of those seasons was his ERA better than 3.5... He only once in his career had a better whip than 1.2...

His playoff numbers- dont get confused, he has pitched the most games thats why he has 19 playoff wins... But he also has 11 playoff losses, with a 3.81 ERA and 1.305 WHIP...

He was never even the Yankees number one pitcher... He was always either the 2 or 3...

Dont get me wrong i am a huge andy pettite fan, and wouldnt want many others pitching when it mattered, but to call him a HOF is kind of a Joke... He is not even a borderline HOF...


Plus 250 wins is an impressive accomplishment, but it is not 300... 300 is the milestone for pitchers... and why do you say that it is going to be too hard for others to ever hit 250 wins??

It is not like Pettite pitched over 36 games ever in his career... that is the normal amount in a 5 man rotation... We just need a pitcher to go 15+ seasons like Pettite did...

Agreed. Pettite is a little below Mussina, Glavine & Schilling - who are all borderline...

They'd all make the Hall of Very Good.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Agreed. Pettite is a little below Mussina, Glavine & Schilling - who are all borderline...

They'd all make the Hall of Very Good.

I agree even though mussina, glavine and schilling are all borderline, they all could make it... Mussina may be one of the most underrated pitchers...

But pettite has no chance to make the HOF, if he does then that is like allowing Reggie Jackson into monument park... it will be a total joke and will damage the way the HOF is perceived...

 

[Wazmankg]

I agree even though mussina, glavine and schilling are all borderline, they all could make it... Mussina may be one of the most underrated pitchers...

But pettite has no chance to make the HOF, if he does then that is like allowing Reggie Jackson into monument park... it will be a total joke and will damage the way the HOF is perceived...

Without getting into a stats debate regarding who's deserving, Glavine and his 305-203 is a lock.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I agree even though mussina, glavine and schilling are all borderline, they all could make it... Mussina may be one of the most underrated pitchers...

But pettite has no chance to make the HOF, if he does then that is like allowing Reggie Jackson into monument park... it will be a total joke and will damage the way the HOF is perceived...

Mussina was every bit as good as Glavine, but will have a much harder time getting in b/c he didn't hang around to get 300 wins nor has the hardware with the Cys and WS (although Mussina's best seasons were on par with Glavine's best seasons, and their playoff numbers are very similar).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

does anyone know how the fan elorater works... thats the rating from baseball reference... it claims that mike mussina is the 18th best pitcher of all time... sandy koufax is 21st...

 

[Wazmankg]

does anyone know how the fan elorater works... thats the rating from baseball reference... it claims that mike mussina is the 18th best pitcher of all time... sandy koufax is 21st...

I think it's just based on the results of an online tool they provide where you can go in pick matchups between players and rank one over the other. In short, it doesn't mean a heck of a lot. It's basically a fan driven popularity contest. Football reference has the same thing. Maybe Basketball & Hockey do too... IDK.

 

[da55bums]

Look at his numbers they are not as good as you think they are:
162 game average: 17-10, 3.85 ERA(career ERA),158 Ks, 1.351 WHIP(career WHIP).

He only had 9 of his 18 seasons with an ERA under 4, and only 4 of those seasons was his ERA better than 3.5... He only once in his career had a better whip than 1.2...

His playoff numbers- dont get confused, he has pitched the most games thats why he has 19 playoff wins... But he also has 11 playoff losses, with a 3.81 ERA and 1.305 WHIP...

He was never even the Yankees number one pitcher... He was always either the 2 or 3...

Dont get me wrong i am a huge andy pettite fan, and wouldnt want many others pitching when it mattered, but to call him a HOF is kind of a Joke... He is not even a borderline HOF...


Plus 250 wins is an impressive accomplishment, but it is not 300... 300 is the milestone for pitchers... and why do you say that it is going to be too hard for others to ever hit 250 wins??

It is not like Pettite pitched over 36 games ever in his career... that is the normal amount in a 5 man rotation... We just need a pitcher to go 15+ seasons like Pettite did...

why Pettite should go to the HOF (he is borderline, I do agree with that)

250 wins (schilling 220, Mussina 270, Glavine 300) if 300 is the number to hit Glavine is the only one getting in (who by the way was also a number 2 or 3 on a perinial playoff team like Pettite...they both were no 1's only for a season or two)

all time record for post season wins 19...glavine had a shot to do this, so have others, but didn't.

Like you even said, there are a lot of people who, if it was a must win game in the post season, would want Pettite on the mound.

there is PED surrounding him, which could knock him completely off of the boarder.

at current pace, there are 3 pitchers with just at 200 wins (CC, Hudson, Halladay) who could maybe get to 250 wins....Verlander and Weaver are the only two young enough (30) that have 137 and 115 wins respectively...if they average 15 wins for the next 10 years (40 yrs old) that still will not put them over 300 wins...in an era that setman and closers have taken more presidence..the era of 300 win pitchers have been significantly reduced to almost long shots. King Felix at 27 yrs old and 110 wins realistically has an outside chance, even Grienke, Wainright and Lester are currently under JV and Weavers paces.

any of the above pitchers would definately have to have 5 20 win seasons and 5 15 win seasons to get them a shot at 300 wins.

 

[StanMarsh51]

why Pettite should go to the HOF (he is borderline, I do agree with that)

250 wins (schilling 220, Mussina 270, Glavine 300) if 300 is the number to hit Glavine is the only one getting in (who by the way was also a number 2 or 3 on a perinial playoff team like Pettite...they both were no 1's only for a season or two)

all time record for post season wins 19...glavine had a shot to do this, so have others, but didn't.

Like you even said, there are a lot of people who, if it was a must win game in the post season, would want Pettite on the mound.

there is PED surrounding him, which could knock him completely off of the boarder.

at current pace, there are 3 pitchers with just at 200 wins (CC, Hudson, Halladay) who could maybe get to 250 wins....Verlander and Weaver are the only two young enough (30) that have 137 and 115 wins respectively...if they average 15 wins for the next 10 years (40 yrs old) that still will not put them over 300 wins...in an era that setman and closers have taken more presidence..the era of 300 win pitchers have been significantly reduced to almost long shots. King Felix at 27 yrs old and 110 wins realistically has an outside chance, even Grienke, Wainright and Lester are currently under JV and Weavers paces.

any of the above pitchers would definately have to have 5 20 win seasons and 5 15 win seasons to get them a shot at 300 wins.

Glavine was the Braves #2/3 (depending on the season), but he also had one of the 10 best pitchers in history on his team in Maddux and another future HOFer in Smoltz, both in their primes. Pettitte played second fiddle to a number of pitchers, including Clemens in non-prime years, Wells, Mussina, Sabathia, Chien-Ming Wang, Jack McDowell....not exactly the same thing. While I do think Glavine is overrated, he did have a good amount of ace-caliber seasons.

You also need to look beyond the wins...they're important, but so is dominance. Pettitte had only 2-3 great years (1997, 2005, and arguably 1996). The rest were above average but not much more than that.

 

[1905 Giants]

First player to ever be in 2 Professional baseball HOFs

Untrue. Martin Dihigo is in the American, Cuban, Mexican, Dominican Republic, and Venezuelan Halls of Fame.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Untrue. Martin Dihigo is in the American, Cuban, Mexican, Dominican Republic, and Venezuelan Halls of Fame.

Well, that is pretty impressive...

 

[broncosmitty]

Who's Martin Dihigo?

 

[da55bums]

Untrue. Martin Dihigo is in the American, Cuban, Mexican, Dominican Republic, and Venezuelan Halls of Fame.

very impressive and never heard of him til now.

 

[navamind]

Glavine was the Braves #2/3 (depending on the season), but he also had one of the 10 best pitchers in history on his team in Maddux and another future HOFer in Smoltz, both in their primes. Pettitte played second fiddle to a number of pitchers, including Clemens in non-prime years, Wells, Mussina, Sabathia, Chien-Ming Wang, Jack McDowell....not exactly the same thing. While I do think Glavine is overrated, he did have a good amount of ace-caliber seasons.

You also need to look beyond the wins...they're important, but so is dominance. Pettitte had only 2-3 great years (1997, 2005, and arguably 1996). The rest were above average but not much more

Not only that, but he only had a few years where he was in the top 10 in his league for IP (97 and 07).

 

[da55bums]

I most likely could agree on Pettite going in or not going in....but I do think there will be a new standard on Win totals over time. There are just too many times RP are used instead of SP's fighting through the middle innings.

I think 300 wins will be Haley's comet soon, about 1 in what 77 years? might see 100 wins and 200 saves more often than 300 wins. Who knows it continues but it doesn't seem to change back anytime soon.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I most likely could agree on Pettite going in or not going in....but I do think there will be a new standard on Win totals over time. There are just too many times RP are used instead of SP's fighting through the middle innings.

I think 300 wins will be Haley's comet soon, about 1 in what 77 years? might see 100 wins and 200 saves more often than 300 wins. Who knows it continues but it doesn't seem to change back anytime soon.

Well it all depends on where do you draw the line between 'greatness' and 'compiling'....I mean, the likes of Jamie Moyer and Johnny Damon weren't too far off from 300 wins and 3,000 hits respectively (maybe 2-3 full seasons short). If either had hit those milestones, are they really HOF worthy?

Obviously, Pettitte is better than Jamie Moyer, does merely being above average most of your career with 2-3 great seasons make one HOF worthy? I'd say no.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Well it all depends on where do you draw the line between 'greatness' and 'compiling'....I mean, the likes of Jamie Moyer and Johnny Damon weren't too far off from 300 wins and 3,000 hits respectively (maybe 2-3 full seasons short). If either had hit those milestones, are they really HOF worthy?

Obviously, Pettitte is better than Jamie Moyer, does merely being above average most of your career with 2-3 great seasons make one HOF worthy? I'd say no.

I don't consider compiling a negative. As long as a player hits a milestone number I think they should automatically make it into the HOF.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't consider compiling a negative. As long as a player hits a milestone number I think they should automatically make it into the HOF.

I think that's setting the bar too low. You could have a guy who's nothing special but good enough to start at his position for 20 years, average 150 hits a season, and get 3,000 hits for his career. I wouldn't say he's HOF worthy.

Take a season like Johnny Damon's 2010, where he hit .271 with a 105 OPS+, 8 HR, 51 RBI, 11 steals, 81 R, 146 H...if you replicate that season over 21 years, that's 3,066 hits with 1,700 runs, 167 HR, 1071 RBI, 231 steals and the .271 AVG/105 OPS+

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think that's setting the bar too low. You could have a guy who's nothing special but good enough to start at his position for 20 years, average 150 hits a season, and get 3,000 hits for his career. I wouldn't say he's HOF worthy.

Take a season like Johnny Damon's 2010, where he hit .271 with a 105 OPS+, 8 HR, 51 RBI, 11 steals, 81 R, 146 H...if you replicate that season over 21 years, that's 3,066 hits with 1,700 runs, 167 HR, 1071 RBI, 231 steals and the .271 AVG/105 OPS+

Yea but thats the thing 21 seasons of playing above average ball is damn impressive... HOF impressive to me... endurance is an under-rated statistic... If a player is a compiler good for him for being good enough for so long...