Future HOFers?

[navamind]

Brock was one of the best baserunners ever, but you're talking about one facet of the game. One that's not as important as the other two (especially offense). And while Brock wasn't a bad hitter at all, his offensive stats still weren't very good for a LF. Among LFers with 5000+ PA, he ranks 117th in wRC+ at 109. Behind the likes of Dave Kingman, Pat Burrell, and Roy Sievers.

 

[StanMarsh51]

If we agree that there are 3 facets to the game: hitting, Baserunning and defense... How can someone who is considered one of the greatest all time in one of the facets not be in the HOF... forget the all around player... The best should always make it no matter how good they are at the other things... He just has too many SBs not to make the HOF(even if his percentage is not the greatest)...

How come when it comes to the MVP race, you lump baserunning in with hitting to create a single offense category, but when it comes to Brock, you keep baserunning as a separate thing to boost his credentials? It doesn't look very consistent...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But again he is one of the best all time at something that is important in baseball... It might not be the most important facet, but the HOF is for the greatest... and if someone is one of the greatest in anything noteworthy then he should be rewarded for it... Hey, we see guys in the 500 HR club that made the HOF, but suck at everything else...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

How come when it comes to the MVP race, you lump baserunning in with hitting to create a single offense category, but when it comes to Brock, you keep baserunning as a separate thing to boost his credentials? It doesn't look very consistent...

Because it is different, one is talking about the best season , MVP talks about the best season, and baserunning is a part of offense... But if we are talking about who makes the HOF, I think if you are the greatest in something then you should make the HOF... SBs is a major baseball category, and should be treated the same as any other major baseball statistic... anyone with over 800 SBs should make the HOF solely because they were the best at that... brock had 938 and is elite of the elite, he is only worse than ricky...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

never saw him play, how was he at defense?? was he anything special??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Also, stanMArsh, i look at milestones first... then when players dont qualify i look at the player as a whole... when i look at the player as a whole then I use the same qualifications i do for MVP except the team making the playoffs is irrelevant...

 

[DragonfromTO]

But again he is one of the best all time at something that is important in baseball... It might not be the most important facet, but the HOF is for the greatest... and if someone is one of the greatest in anything noteworthy then he should be rewarded for it... Hey, we see guys in the 500 HR club that made the HOF, but suck at everything else...

I'd argue for starters that 500 HRs are way more valuable than 800 SBs, even if the basestealer goes 800 for 800. But putting that aside, who do you have in mind here?

 

[DragonfromTO]

never saw him play, how was he at defense?? was he anything special??

Who, Brock? He is widely regarded as having been rather lousy at it actually. I know that errors aren't the best way to judge an outfielder but in this case it's extreme enough to mention as he made tons of them, he finished 1st or 2nd in the NL in LF errors for 12 straight seasons and his career F% of .959 was significantly below the league average for LF (.976). He made 19 errors one year, that's the highest total for an outfielder since before Hitler invaded Poland.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'd argue for starters that 500 HRs are way more valuable than 800 SBs, even if the basestealer goes 800 for 800. But putting that aside, who do you have in mind here?

nobody specific... i am just a believer that the best should make the hof... no matter what they are best at...

That is for the main counting categories- offense{H,HR,SB,RBIs,Runs} might even argue for triples and doubles...

for pitchers-{Ks,Wins,IPs,saves,(ERA, WHIP for qualified pitchers), BBs(least in a minimum amount of games)}

 

[DragonfromTO]

nobody specific... i am just a believer that the best should make the hof... no matter what they are best at...

That is for the main counting categories- offense{H,HR,SB,RBIs,Runs} might even argue for triples and doubles...

for pitchers-{Ks,Wins,IPs,saves,(ERA, WHIP for qualified pitchers), BBs(least in a minimum amount of games)}

You said that there are guys in the HoF that have 500 HRs but sucked at everything else to defend your position, you have to at least be able to produce a single specific name.

 

[da55bums]

tough to do since Dave Kingman (442), Juan Gonzales (434) and Adam Dunn (440) didn't get over 500... and even not in the HOF.

maybe Jim Thome or Mark McGuire...but neither is in the HOF yet.

yeah, you aren't going to get a good answer on this one...every HOF over 200 hr was good at something else.

 

[broncosmitty]

Brock is top 50 alltime in runs. So all those stolen bases did amount to something. But when compared to other great base stealers(Ricky Hendy, Ty Cobb, Billy Hamilton) he's down the list a ways. Tim Raines and Vince Coleman trail him though. There definitely are some 500 homer guys that won't be getting in.

 

[broncosmitty]

I think a case should be made for George Van Haltren being inducted. He's up there in several categories, had a mean 'stache, played short as a lefty and still holds the major league record for walks in a game. (As a pitcher, not a hitter)

 

[StanMarsh51]

Brock is top 50 alltime in runs. So all those stolen bases did amount to something. But when compared to other great base stealers(Ricky Hendy, Ty Cobb, Billy Hamilton) he's down the list a ways. Tim Raines and Vince Coleman trail him though. There definitely are some 500 homer guys that won't be getting in.

In terms of basestealing or overall? I'd say Raines was better in both aspects.

They were basically similar average and power hitters, but Raines was a better basestealer (stole 130 less bases but caught 160x less, so a much better success rate), got on base a lot more, and played better defense (though neither were 'good' in the field).

 

[broncosmitty]

In terms of basestealing or overall? I'd say Raines was better in both aspects.

They were basically similar average and power hitters, but Raines was a better basestealer (stole 130 less bases but caught 160x less, so a much better success rate), got on base a lot more, and played better defense (though neither were 'good' in the field).

Normally I post on opinion, not that time. I was just going with career runs scored. Brock has a slight edge on Rock Raines and almost doubled Vincent VanGo's career run total. (Lou is right behind Chipper on the alltime list, which means nothing but he's probably a future HOFer so I mentioned him)

 

[Bulldog]

You don't think Ichiro will make it?

I must be going blind as I don't remember seeing his name. To answer your question, yes he will. He should be at the top of everyone's list.

 

[Bulldog]

Jim Thome-...612 hr...2500 strikeouts...
Ichiro - 2700 hits in 13 yrs
Pujols - 500 hrs - could get to 3000 hits also in 4 to 5 years.
Pettite - 250 wins


will all go in the HOF ...or they wont have anyone go in for a long time the way they are skipping the PED era.

Thome, Ichiro and Pujols will go but not Pettite.

 

[Bulldog]

Craig Biggio was also a very good player who had a number of great seasons during the mid to late '90s....he hung around a bit too long to get 3000, but even if he retired 2 years earlier and ended up with 2800 hits, I'd still say he's HOF worthy.

I don't know what Biggio has to do with mediocre players making the HOF, because Biggio certainly didn't have a mediocre career.

Biggio was a great player. I believe he's the only player ever to make all star teams as a catcher, 2B and OF, three different positions.

 

[da55bums]

someone mentioned Chipper Jones...he is a HOFer coming up too.