Future HOFers?

[MilkSpiller22]

There is a difference between best players and best careers...

 

[StanMarsh51]

Yea but thats the thing 21 seasons of playing above average ball is damn impressive... HOF impressive to me... endurance is an under-rated statistic... If a player is a compiler good for him for being good enough for so long...

Well that's the thing...for a corner OFer/DH like Damon was in 2010, that numbers were very mediocre. The average LFer in 2010 had a 111 OPS+, while the average DH had a 106 OPS+.

So if he's mediocre at his position for 21 years, we'd be rewarding him for simply his durability, which is something nice to have, but when there's not much else to the resume, I don't think it's HOF worthy.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Well that's the thing...for a corner OFer/DH like Damon was in 2010, that numbers were very mediocre. The average LFer in 2010 had a 111 OPS+, while the average DH had a 106 OPS+.

So if he's mediocre at his position for 21 years, we'd be rewarding him for simply his durability, which is something nice to have, but when there's not much else to the resume, I don't think it's HOF worthy.

If he can be mediocre for 21 seasons, then i would have no problem giving him HOF(as long as he hits a milestone number)... how many players do you think play longer than 15 seasons... usually its only the good ones anyway... I think Craig Biggio should make the HOF!!! and think it will be a travesty if he doesnt make it...

 

[navamind]

If he can be mediocre for 21 seasons, then i would have no problem giving him HOF(as long as he hits a milestone number)... how many players do you think play longer than 15 seasons... usually its only the good ones anyway... I think Craig Biggio should make the HOF!!! and think it will be a travesty if he doesnt make it...

This is just silly.

(Biggio should be in, but not because he reached 3000 hits. He should be in because he was a great baserunner and career .281/.363/.433 (112 OPS+) with well over 10,000 PA at 2B.)

 

[StanMarsh51]

If he can be mediocre for 21 seasons, then i would have no problem giving him HOF(as long as he hits a milestone number)... how many players do you think play longer than 15 seasons... usually its only the good ones anyway... I think Craig Biggio should make the HOF!!! and think it will be a travesty if he doesnt make it...

Craig Biggio was also a very good player who had a number of great seasons during the mid to late '90s....he hung around a bit too long to get 3000, but even if he retired 2 years earlier and ended up with 2800 hits, I'd still say he's HOF worthy.

I don't know what Biggio has to do with mediocre players making the HOF, because Biggio certainly didn't have a mediocre career.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i actually wonder who was the worst player who had 7000(11 seasons of healthy ball) or more PA... I am sure you will not be able to find one actual bad player...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This is just silly.

(Biggio should be in, but not because he reached 3000 hits. He should be in because he was a great baserunner and career .281/.363/.433 (112 OPS+) with well over 10,000 PA at 2B.)

you would think it is silly if you dont understand the difference between great career and great player...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Craig Biggio was also a very good player who had a number of great seasons during the mid to late '90s....he hung around a bit too long to get 3000, but even if he retired 2 years earlier and ended up with 2800 hits, I'd still say he's HOF worthy.

I don't know what Biggio has to do with mediocre players making the HOF, because Biggio certainly didn't have a mediocre career.

Just used biggio as an example since he was up recently and there were many people against him being in the HOF because he was not a great player(to them)... was not a perfect example, just a recent one,...

 

[navamind]

Alfredo Griffin had a career WAR of -1.0, and he had 7331 PA.

Major League Leaderboards » 2013 » Batters » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[StanMarsh51]

i actually wonder who was the worst player who had 7000(11 seasons of healthy ball) or more PA... I am sure you will not be able to find one actual bad player...

Who ever said anything about 'bad players?' Being mediocre is completely different than being 'bad'

How about a guy like Royce Clayton, Gee Walker, or Mark McLemore? They seem rather mediocre to me while having 7000+ PAs, no?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Just used biggio as an example since he was up recently and there were many people against him being in the HOF because he was not a great player(to them)... was not a perfect example, just a recent one,...

From what I've seen on forums at least, a lot of the people who don't think he's a HOFer are the HR/RBI fanboys. The same general group that thinks a guy like Barry Larkin wasn't HOF worthy, and think you need to hit 400 HR to be worthy.

In other words, I'd wouldn't put too much stock in their stance.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Who ever said anything about 'bad players?' Being mediocre is completely different than being 'bad'

How about a guy like Royce Clayton, Gee Walker, or Mark McLemore? They seem rather mediocre to me while having 7000+ PAs, no?

too strong on my point... made it backfire... Getting backtracked... i just would rather have a player be very good for 15+ seasons than to be great for only 5... any milestone shows that the player was good enough for a long period of time...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i should have asked what players that hit milestones are only mediocre??? dont think there are many...

 

[da55bums]

I think that's setting the bar too low. You could have a guy who's nothing special but good enough to start at his position for 20 years, average 150 hits a season, and get 3,000 hits for his career. I wouldn't say he's HOF worthy.

Take a season like Johnny Damon's 2010, where he hit .271 with a 105 OPS+, 8 HR, 51 RBI, 11 steals, 81 R, 146 H...if you replicate that season over 21 years, that's 3,066 hits with 1,700 runs, 167 HR, 1071 RBI, 231 steals and the .271 AVG/105 OPS+

a simple question, how isn't playing 20 years and 3000 hits not special?

being allowed to repeat that season for 21 years wouldn't happen, he would have been replaced, benched, and passed around the league and not consistantly starting.

Its rare
3000 hits isn't easy to obtain
to last 20 years, you have to be above average
durability alone for that long is special...If a player comes up at 22...the guy is playing til 42?

I have to disagree...compiling is hard to accomplish...compiling is what the HOF is about....or a guy with 10 years and 6 or 7 great seasons or 15 years 8 or 9 great years gets in with 200 wins?

 

[StanMarsh51]

too strong on my point... made it backfire... Getting backtracked... i just would rather have a player be very good for 15+ seasons than to be great for only 5... any milestone shows that the player was good enough for a long period of time...

I'm not disagreeing with the bolded above, but you can reach those milestones (or at least come close to them) without being very good/great, and that's the problem at hand. You're the one saying you'd have no problem voting for a guy who was mediocre for 21 years as long as he reached the milestone...that doesn't mean he was great or very good for any stretch of his career.

 

[da55bums]

Well that's the thing...for a corner OFer/DH like Damon was in 2010, that numbers were very mediocre. The average LFer in 2010 had a 111 OPS+, while the average DH had a 106 OPS+.

So if he's mediocre at his position for 21 years, we'd be rewarding him for simply his durability, which is something nice to have, but when there's not much else to the resume, I don't think it's HOF worthy.

nobody could play 21 years and compile a career with that "average"....that is where stats dont mix with reality.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

a compiler who does not reach any milestone is not a HOF in my book... it is all about the milestone... I just cant imagine someone not very good ever hitting the milestone even as a compiler...

 

[StanMarsh51]

nobody could play 21 years and compile a career with that "average"....that is where stats dont mix with reality.

Which isn't the point...we're saying it could happen, just like it could happen with a pitcher getting to 300, and whether they'd be HOF worthy if that did happen.

 

[element1286]

a compiler who does not reach any milestone is not a HOF in my book... it is all about the milestone... I just cant imagine someone not very good ever hitting the milestone even as a compiler...

Exact mindset I despise.

It what turns Tony Gwynn into a no doubt HOF'er with 97% of the vote first year and Tim Raines into a guy who is barely getting 20% 5 years later. They had essentially the same careers at the same time period.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Exact mindset I despise.

It what turns Tony Gwynn into a no doubt HOF'er with 97% of the vote first year and Tim Raines into a guy who is barely getting 20% 5 years later. They had essentially the same careers at the same time period.

I am not solely on the Milestone bandwagon though, there are other ways to make it... And i dont only use a milestone for HRs,and Hits... I do for SBs as well i consider it 800 SBs...