Future HOFers?

[da55bums]

Cabrera already has better numbers than Dale Murphy in EIGHT less seasons. Maybe if Dale Murphy didn't hit about .250 his first 4 full seasons while only averaging about 55-60 rbi's. He'd be in the HOF.

Like Utley -- Murphy had a 5 year stretch or so where he put up superstar numbers. The rest of the seasons -- he didn't. So ONCE AGAIN I will say -- Cabrera has been doing it for TEN years or every year he has been in the MLB. He didn't just start putting up monster numbers. He was doing it when he was 21 and hit almost .300 with 33 homeruns and 112 rbis. He has just continued to get better.

funny, I thought you said Miggy would get in because of "personal accolades"...wow I thought 2 MVP's, 2 HR titles, 2 RBI titles, 1 season of leading the league in Runs, OPS...and he did all of it on pure CRAPPY teams....are "personal accolades"

Guess I shouldn't bring up Larry Walker, etcs "personal accolades"

 

[da55bums]

for the record....Utley is not a HOFer if Tim Raines isn't..

 

[broncosmitty]

Yes.

But you don't have to qualify to appear on the leader boards for counting stats.

Right, but it's got to be quite rare for any nonqualifyer in abs to lead in a counting stat. Has anyone lead in a stat without reaching the requirement to qualify for the batting/OBP title?

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Even the guy being talked about Utley....you are even saying he isn't HOF worthy....why? because the last 4 years he has been injuried......then Miggy was injuried the end of this season, had surgery (like Utley did 4 years ago) and could battle injuries the next 4 years also...

I was not comparing Utley to Miggy you moron

if you aren't comparing Utley and Cabrera's validity for the HOF, why would you bring up Utley and his injury history and then say Cabrera could end up battling injuries too?!?!?

you, my friend, make absolutely NO SENSE.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

funny, I thought you said Miggy would get in because of "personal accolades"...wow I thought 2 MVP's, 2 HR titles, 2 RBI titles, 1 season of leading the league in Runs, OPS...and he did all of it on pure CRAPPY teams....are "personal accolades"

Guess I shouldn't bring up Larry Walker, etcs "personal accolades"

Yes, they are personal accolades, but when you don't back it up with really good numbers in other years -- it is nothing more than hot stretch for a couple years.

Cabrera hasn't put up superstar numbers for a couple years -- he has done it for 10 years. Cabrera also put those numbers up on some "Crappy Teams", with the exception of his 1st year in the MLB, until he was traded to Detroit.

The guys you continue to talk about are guys who put up HOF worthy numbers for 4-5 year stretches. Cabrera has been putting up those numbers since he was 21, when he had his "worst" year and hit .294 with 33 homeruns and 112 rbis, it was also his career low OPS+ of 130. When your 'worst season' in 10 years is 33 and 112 with a .294 BA. I'm going out on a limb and saying he doesn't fall into the category of players like Dale Murphy or Chase Utley or anyone else who was elite for 4-5 seasons.

 

[da55bums]

if you aren't comparing Utley and Cabrera's validity for the HOF, why would you bring up Utley and his injury history and then say Cabrera could end up battling injuries too?!?!?

you, my friend, make absolutely NO SENSE.

I would never compare Utley to Miggy offensively.....Utley shouldn't even be HOF talked...I was stating that Utley had surgury and has had injury problem since which took him OUT of HOF discussions...Miggy has had surgury...and he could battle injuries ever since....surgury is the only equal comparison between these two.

 

[da55bums]

Walker from 92-02, Rice from 75-85, Raines 81-93...but hey that was before the PED era.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Walker from 92-02, Rice from 75-85, Raines 81-93...but hey that was before the PED era.

Walker missed 408 games from 1992-2002. Only had 4 seasons over 30 homeruns and 5 seasons of 100 rbis. Also had the luxury of playing home games at Coors Field, though I am not sure if his home/road splits were much different or not? Never looked anything like that up.

Tim Raines -- it is tough to get into the HOF when you rely on your legs. He started off his 1st 6 years with HOF worthy numbers, but when you rely on your legs a lot, as you get older, your production goes down quicker. I could see an argument for him to get in, but you need to have a great glove or won batting titles, etc. Raines most impressive accomplishment is leading the league 4 years in a row in steals and finishing with 808 steals. He is a fringe guy who may get in, but most likely by the VC if he does.

Jim Rice -- Finished with 398 homeruns, but many were Green Monster homeruns, that wouldn't have been HRs anywhere else. They say his actual HR total would be 350, which is still impressive, but not too much when you notice he only hit 30 homeruns in a season 4 times and the fact his numbers on the road were DRASTICALLY lower (.277 BA, .330 OBP, 459 SLG) When you play 25% of your career games at DH -- you had better put up numbers much better than that. He won't get in. I could name 10 guys better that played in his era -- Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken Jr., Wade Boggs, Ryne Sandberg, Gary Carter, Eddie Murray, Ozzie Smith, Dave Winfield, Mike Schmidt.
Last reason why Jim Rice won't get in the HOF -- he ranks 177th all time for OPS+ and there isn't even 177 hitters in the HOF. He isn't getting in.

 

[broncosmitty]

Jim Rice has been a HOFer since 09. The writers are to blame, or credit, depending on where you stand.

 

[Wazmankg]

The gap between Miggy and Utley offensive is huge. But the same could be said about the gap between them in baserunning and defense.

Maybe but unless your're a Ricky Henderson or Ozzie Smith in those areas they mean pretty close to nothing in the eyes of HOF voters.

 

[da55bums]

Walker missed 408 games from 1992-2002. Only had 4 seasons over 30 homeruns and 5 seasons of 100 rbis. Also had the luxury of playing home games at Coors Field, though I am not sure if his home/road splits were much different or not? Never looked anything like that up.

Tim Raines -- it is tough to get into the HOF when you rely on your legs. He started off his 1st 6 years with HOF worthy numbers, but when you rely on your legs a lot, as you get older, your production goes down quicker. I could see an argument for him to get in, but you need to have a great glove or won batting titles, etc. Raines most impressive accomplishment is leading the league 4 years in a row in steals and finishing with 808 steals. He is a fringe guy who may get in, but most likely by the VC if he does.

Jim Rice -- Finished with 398 homeruns, but many were Green Monster homeruns, that wouldn't have been HRs anywhere else. They say his actual HR total would be 350, which is still impressive, but not too much when you notice he only hit 30 homeruns in a season 4 times and the fact his numbers on the road were DRASTICALLY lower (.277 BA, .330 OBP, 459 SLG) When you play 25% of your career games at DH -- you had better put up numbers much better than that. He won't get in. I could name 10 guys better that played in his era -- Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken Jr., Wade Boggs, Ryne Sandberg, Gary Carter, Eddie Murray, Ozzie Smith, Dave Winfield, Mike Schmidt.
Last reason why Jim Rice won't get in the HOF -- he ranks 177th all time for OPS+ and there isn't even 177 hitters in the HOF. He isn't getting in.

Walker was injured? Utley was injured???? hmmmm, players could have their career shortened by injuries, who would have ever thought?

Miggy, finished his last season injuried, had surgury....WILL miss games over the next 3 to 6 years, why? because thats what over 30's....dude, you are proving my point for me....Miggys career isn't complete...injuries could, just or unjustly, take away a great hitter before its time...so he isn't a lock, yet...

Miggy - still under 2000 hits..under 400 hrs...let him at least get over 2750 hits before you call him a for sure HOF....thats what 3 to 5 season...wow...almost exactly what I stated the very 1st post before all your defensive garble.

Walker - Coors effect, thats the reason you say his numbers are worthless? (non PED era, Miggy in the PED era)
Raines - His legs go as he got older? no shit, similar to when a players bat speed diminishes as he gets older (both of which Miggy is getting to those years)

Tony Gwynn-HOF, Cal Ripken Jr.-HOF, Wade Boggs-HOF, Ryne Sandberg-HOF, Gary Carter-HOF, Eddie Murray-HOF, Ozzie Smith-HOF-not better than Rice cracksmoker, Dave Winfield-HOF, Mike Schmidt-HOF.

You named 10 guys better than Rice...all 10 are in the HALL OF FAME!!!!...that might be the dumbest point ever on a discussion on why Rice should NOT be in the HOF????? you can't name anyone BETTER than him during his time WHO ISN"T in the HOF...wow...thank you...nice job, you are RIGHT Rice should be with all of those guys.

I am sure you will call me names, probably quit and take your ball and go home like last time I wouldn't accept your "truth" and say "your right, your brilliant" but until Miggys career is 3 or 4 more (uninjured years of course) or 2600 to 2800 hits...I will not call him a lock for the HOF (well unless a plane crash or something horrible happens)..it doesn't matter all the info you want to throw out...I can see that we are just going round and round about the same topic we have before.

Maybe, if it will end the used to be entertaining babble you throw out, sure...Miggy is a 1st ballot HOF, they shouldn't even wait the 5 years after he retires, he should be the 1st player ever to go directly into the HOF after 10 years and while still playing. The voters and the HOF just doesn't get it but Trustmeitstherightthingtodo.

 

[da55bums]

Jim Rice has been a HOFer since 09. The writers are to blame, or credit, depending on where you stand.

wow, agree with you smitty...good call.

 

[da55bums]

hold it, Tim Raines 6 years? try 12 years...holy crap..I give

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Walker was injured? Utley was injured???? hmmmm, players could have their career shortened by injuries, who would have ever thought?

Once again -- you are comparing guys who WERE injury plagued to a guy who has missed 47 games in 10 full seasons.

You want to talk about Walker and his "10 year stretch", yet you fail to realize, HE MISSED TWO AND A HALF SEASONS WORTH OF GAMES, in that "10 year stretch".

Utley has missed 340 games in his 10 full seasons in the MLB or just over 2 full seasons worth of games.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Miggy, finished his last season injuried, had surgury....WILL miss games over the next 3 to 6 years, why? because thats what over 30's....dude, you are proving my point for me....Miggys career isn't complete...injuries could, just or unjustly, take away a great hitter before its time...so he isn't a lock, yet...

Miggy - still under 2000 hits..under 400 hrs...let him at least get over 2750 hits before you call him a for sure HOF....thats what 3 to 5 season...wow...almost exactly what I stated the very 1st post before all your defensive garble.

He WILL miss games? Why? Because other players have? Guess what -- other players haven't missed games due to injury. Hell -- Cal Ripken played how many seasons in a row without missing a game? How is that possible?

Just so I get this straight -- you can see the future when it comes to players getting hurt, but not what players are going to do in upcoming years for stats. Got it.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Walker - Coors effect, thats the reason you say his numbers are worthless? (non PED era, Miggy in the PED era)

Where did I say his numbers are worthless? I said he only had 4 years with 30 homeruns and 5 years with 100 rbis. You are the one who said to look at his 10 year stretch, I just mentioned he missed 2 1/2 seasons worth of games in your so called "10 year stretch".

Cabrera has already had a 10 year stretch with much better numbers and only missed 47 games AND he is only 30.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Raines - His legs go as he got older? no shit, similar to when a players bat speed diminishes as he gets older (both of which Miggy is getting to those years)

You aren't going to hear me put up much of an argument with Raines. He is looked at as one of those borderline players, like a couple Tigers (Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker). All three of those players have better numbers than guys already in the HOF, but for whatever reason the media doesn't vote them in.

As far as mentioning him in the same breath for a 10 year stretch as Cabrera -- It is ridiculous to even try. Raines had about a 5 year stretch where he put up superstar numbers followed by 15 years of good, but not great numbers. I think the problem is -- many people remember Raines for the last 15 years, instead of what he did when he first came into the league.

 

[da55bums]

Once again -- you are comparing guys who WERE injury plagued to a guy who has missed 47 games in 10 full seasons.

You want to talk about Walker and his "10 year stretch", yet you fail to realize, HE MISSED TWO AND A HALF SEASONS WORTH OF GAMES, in that "10 year stretch".

Utley has missed 340 games in his 10 full seasons in the MLB or just over 2 full seasons worth of games.

why are we even arguing?

we both agree Miggy is a great hitter, both agree that he has been the best hitter in the game for the last 3 years(truth)....so what if we disagree if he is a HOF lock yet(obviously and painfully true)...that determination/difference doesn't make either one of us "stupid" or a "moron". It is starting to just look petty that you want just prove your "right" but frustrated because you can't because Miggy hasn't played in his 30's yet, your just speculating/guessing/making shit up of what will happen in his 30's..(truth) I just realize alot can happen after 30 because baseball history tells us so (truth), miggy isn't super human and not immune to a changing body(truth). There is a great chance Miggy will get to HOF status within 3 years, like I said at the beginning.(truth)

Walker's injuries at age 30 and 34-true

Utley injuries at 30 to 34-true

Raines injuries after 30

tons of player injuries after 30

Pujols injuries at 33, still at 2350 hits also but he at least is over 500 hrs which makes him locked-true (he had a lot of games at Busch stadium though and haven't look up his home/away splits-joke)

Miggy injuries at 30 and still hasn't played at 31, 32, 33, 34 etc crap what don't you get about this and I actually do hope he returns and smokes the ball for 3 to 6 more years, it would be good for baseball for Trout to have someone challenging him (before you get your panties in a bunch, it was also great for Pujols to have Miggy challenge him and take the "best player in the game" title from him)..it happens and will happen to Miggy thats history (true) its not hating , yep he still can't be compared....til he actually does it. Miggy has a higher probablity to have injuries than to have complete seasons in his 30's..based on baseball history.

I will say Miggy is lock for HOF at 2700 hits or 500 hrs (oddly that is at least 1 criteria, true), til then, I am not jumping on board yet, that is not to say he isn't already a great hitter, he has proven that...not even 2000 hits and he is a HOFer...lets just put anyone over 2000 hits in the HOF next or over 350 hrs is in a nutshell what you want me to agree to be true and I can't, even if Trout goes over 2000 hits and 350 hrs in LESS than 10 years I won't for him either, nor any player.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

No point in arguing with Bums.

Same guy who said Wacha will have Tommy John because Harvey just did.

Basically if someone is hurt. It's automatically going to also happen to whoever he claims.

 

[da55bums]

No point in arguing with Bums.

Same guy who said Wacha will have Tommy John because Harvey just did.

Basically if someone is hurt. It's automatically going to also happen to whoever he claims.

its not automatic its at 35 percent in MLB currently and increasing yearly, not just Harvey and I think I mentioned Strausburg, Anderson, Medlen, Duffy, Hutchensen, but also the other 35 percent of MLB pitchers, lol...again MLB facts...

Likely and probably are also injuries to Miggy...opps, he just turned 30 and had surgery...ironic

Can't wait to see Wacha go under the knife, the sooner the better so he can have a long career..its almost a right of passage now, not a bad thing at all...brought up very young, put in high pressure situations throwing with everything, extended his what 2nd season, yes tons of pitchers survive that without arm trouble in baseball history..if I add the age to it and apply it to pitchers in history...those percentages are much higher than 35 percent.....lol....someone good at odds making give them on 2014 TJ or 2015 TJ...we already know its below 3 to 1 since that is already the MLB's current average on every year.