First Base Championship Belt

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Read the initial post about the Pitcher Championship belt to get the gist.

Pitchers: www.sportshoopla.com/forums/mlb-baseball-forum-message-board-general-discussion/107385-starting-pitching-championship-belt.html
Catchers: www.sportshoopla.com/forums/mlb-baseball-forum-message-board-general-discussion/108551-catching-championship-belt.html

Now, on to First Base
2012-present Joey Votto
2011-2012 Miguel Cabrera
2004-2011 Albert Pujols
2003-2004 Todd Helton
2001-2003 Jason Giambi
1997-2001 Jeff Bagwell
1994-1997 Jeff Bagwell & Frank Thomas (co-champions)
1992-1994 Frank Thomas
1988-1992 Will Clark
1985-1988 Don Mattingly
1982-1985 Eddie Murray
1979-1982 Keith Hernandez
1976-1979 Rod Carew
1974-1976 Steve Garvey
1973-1974 Tony Perez
1972-1973 Dick Allen
1971-1972 Hank Aaron
1965-1971 Willie McCovey
1962-1965 Bill White
1961-1962 Norm Cash
1959-1961 Frank Robinson
1956-1959 Stan Musial
1954-1956 Ted Kluszewski
1949-1954 Gil Hodges
1947-1949 Johnny Mize
1946-1947 Stan Musial
1943-1946 Phil Cavarretta (disputed championship with Hank Greenberg and Johnny Mize overseas)
1940-1943 Johnny Mize
1938-1940 Jimmie Foxx
1936-1938 Lou Gehrig
1935-1936 Hank Greenberg
1932-1935 Jimmie Foxx
1926-1932 Lou Gehrig
1923-1926 Jack Fournier
1916-1923 George Sisler
1912-1916 Stuffy McInnis
1909-1912 Ed Konetchy
1903-1909 Frank Chance
1899-1903 Jake Beckley
1898-1899 Dan McGann
1897-1898 Nap Lajoie
1895-1897 Roger Connor
1891-1895 Dan Brouthers
1890-1891 Cap Anson
1889-1891 Dan Brouthers
1888-1889 Cap Anson
1882-1888 Dan Brouthers
1880-1882 Cap Anson
1878-1880 Joe Start
1877-1878 Deacon White
1875-1877 Cal McVey
1873-1874 Jim O'Rourke
1871-1873 Joe Start

 

[rokketmn]

Your seasons are confusing me. Miggy played 3B in 2012, so how can he be champion for 2011 and 2012? Do you mean just 2011? Then what about Pujols?

I love Votto, and think he is one of the best hitters in the game, but at what point do you stop crediting his great OBP and take a hard look at his Hr's and RBI? He also missed 50 games in 2012, so I don't think his overall production is there for these last 2 seasons.

I would go with Miggy for 2010 and 2011, with Votto by default for 2012 based on his 2009-2011 production.

For me, Paul Goldschmidt is the standard at 1B for this season. Both he and Votto have OPS of around .940, but Goldy has 31 hr's and 100 RBI. Plus, 17 steals.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Your seasons are confusing me. Miggy played 3B in 2012, so how can he be champion for 2011 and 2012? Do you mean just 2011? Then what about Pujols?

I love Votto, and think he is one of the best hitters in the game, but at what point do you stop crediting his great OBP and take a hard look at his Hr's and RBI? He also missed 50 games in 2012, so I don't think his overall production is there for these last 2 seasons.

I would go with Miggy for 2010 and 2011, with Votto by default for 2012 based on his 2009-2011 production.

For me, Paul Goldschmidt is the standard at 1B for this season. Both he and Votto have OPS of around .940, but Goldy has 31 hr's and 100 RBI. Plus, 17 steals.

The criteria (which was explained when he first started doing this) is that a player needs to have track record, therefore being great for more than a 1 season stretch. Goldschmidt's been great for what, 120 games?

Per the original explanation:
This doesn't mean they were the absolute best in an individual season, but they had shown a sustained level of dominance to hold the crown.

For instance, the best pitcher in baseball was Zach Greinke for the 2009 MLB season. However, Greinke didn't have the track record of a Roy Halladay. Halladay had been great for years, and was one of the best pitchers in 2009. So he was- arguably- the "Best Pitcher in Baseball" in 2009, even if he wasn't the best that particular season. He had established over the course of several seasons to be the most consistently excellent.

 

[rokketmn]

I would go with Wille Stargell over Perez and Garvey for 1973-1975

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Your seasons are confusing me. Miggy played 3B in 2012, so how can he be champion for 2011 and 2012? Do you mean just 2011? Then what about Pujols?

I love Votto, and think he is one of the best hitters in the game, but at what point do you stop crediting his great OBP and take a hard look at his Hr's and RBI? He also missed 50 games in 2012, so I don't think his overall production is there for these last 2 seasons.

I would go with Miggy for 2010 and 2011, with Votto by default for 2012 based on his 2009-2011 production.

For me, Paul Goldschmidt is the standard at 1B for this season. Both he and Votto have OPS of around .940, but Goldy has 31 hr's and 100 RBI. Plus, 17 steals.

He's not the champion for 2012. He held the championship until the 2012 season, when he moved to 3B.

Cabrera was not better than Pujols in 2010.

This isn't meant to be a season-by-season thing. Established track record is a big part of the equation. Joey Votto might not be having a better season than Goldschmidt this season, but he's still having a great season PLUS he has the established proven track record. Goldschmidt might defeat him for the title in the near future, but he hasn't proven enough yet.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I would go with Wille Stargell over Perez and Garvey for 1973-1975

Stargell didn't play 1B in 1973 or 1974, and I don't agree that he was better than Garvey in 1975.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I would go with Wille Stargell over Perez and Garvey for 1973-1975

Except Stargell wasn't a 1B in '73 and '74

 

[rokketmn]

Except Stargell wasn't a 1B in '73 and '74

My bad.

 

[geneh_33]

Freddie Freeman, dude!

 

[Chef99]

Freddie Freeman, dude!

Bro, I love Freeman, but you just bought yourself paragraphs of analysis. I hope his wOBA has gotten better.

 

[geneh_33]

Bro, I love Freeman, but you just bought yourself paragraphs of analysis. I hope his wOBA has gotten better.

JUst messing with you guys. But he will have that belt in the future!

 

[JR Hart]

I love the concept. It's hard not to see Orlando Cepeda on there.

In 62, 63, 64 Cepeda went .310/.345/.538 97 HRs 302 RBI 920 TB while playing 1B

Bill White, who you list went .307/.359/.482 66 HRs 306 RBI 872 TB while playing 1B

Cedepa was also strong at 1B in 58 and 59 .317/.346/.528 56 hrs 169 RBI

Also Cepeda split time in 1961 between OF and 1b, when put he up MVP numbers. Of course he was unanimous MVP in 1967.

Just my observation, Cepeda was a force at 1B, and IMO, he is underrated historically.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I love the concept. It's hard not to see Orlando Cepeda on there.

In 62, 63, 64 Cepeda went .310/.345/.538 97 HRs 302 RBI 920 TB while playing 1B

Bill White, who you list went .307/.359/.482 66 HRs 306 RBI 872 TB while playing 1B

Cedepa was also strong at 1B in 58 and 59 .317/.346/.528 56 hrs 169 RBI

Also Cepeda split time in 1961 between OF and 1b, when put he up MVP numbers. Of course he was unanimous MVP in 1967.

Just my observation, Cepeda was a force at 1B, and IMO, he is underrated historically.

I think what hurt (in his HOF voting, etc) is that he didn't have an extended amount of dominance..I'd say he probably had 4-5 great seasons, and the rest was just good (by 1B standards)....and for a guy with only 13 full seasons, you'd probably wanna see more dominance to compensate.

 

[EnterSandman]

Quick glance: Guys that (probably) will have the belt at two positions:

Cabrera (3B)
Carew (2B)
Aaron (RF)
Robinson (RF)
Musial (LF)
Lajoie (2B)

Longest time with the belt: Sisler, Pujols (8 seasons)

Highest amount of seasons between two (consecutive) stints for a player: Musial (8 seasons) - otherwise, Anson had nine seasons between his first and last stints.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Paul Goldschmidt should win the belt no doubt. #'s don't lie... offensively AND defensively... he does it all. Hits bombs, drives runs in, scores runs, steals bases, plays excellent defense, hits walk offs and game winners. Dude is a stud.

In his first full year last year I think he was a little underrated. .286 AVG, 20HR, 82 RBI, 18SB... not bad for his first full season in the bigs. He's only getting better.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Paul Goldschmidt should win the belt no doubt. #'s don't lie... offensively AND defensively... he does it all. Hits bombs, drives runs in, scores runs, steals bases, plays excellent defense, hits walk offs and game winners. Dude is a stud.

In his first full year last year I think he was a little underrated. .286 AVG, 20HR, 82 RBI, 18SB... not bad for his first full season in the bigs. He's only getting better.

It's entirely possible and he could claim the title by next year, but he's not there yet. Votto is still better than him for the time being, even if Goldschmidt has a better season.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

It's entirely possible and he could claim the title by next year, but he's not there yet. Votto is still better than him for the time being, even if Goldschmidt has a better season.

I just have to disagree with you there... Goldy has been better than Votto the past two seasons now. Sure Votto missed 50 games or however many it was but still, number wise Goldy has been better than Votto for 2 straight years. I don't see how he's not the champ this year.

 

[navamind]

I just have to disagree with you there... Goldy has been better than Votto the past two seasons now. Sure Votto missed 50 games or however many it was but still, number wise Goldy has been better than Votto for 2 straight years. I don't see how he's not the champ this year.

How was he better last year?

Votto: .337/.474/.567, 174 OPS+
Goldschmidt: .286/.359/.490, 126 OPS+

Votto did miss time, but I have a hard time believing 112 more plate appearances makes up for the ridiculous gaps in offense. Not only did Votto lead the league in OBP (again), but his OBP was only 16 points lower than Goldschmidt's SLG%. Think about that for a second.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

How was he better last year?

Votto: .337/.474/.567, 174 OPS+
Goldschmidt: .286/.359/.490, 126 OPS+

Votto did miss time, but I have a hard time believing 112 more plate appearances makes up for the ridiculous gaps in offense. Not only did Votto lead the league in OBP (again), but his OBP was only 16 points lower than Goldschmidt's SLG%. Think about that for a second.

I'm just saying I'd take a full year of solid production over part of a season with high on base percentage and a good OPS. I might be a little old school but I want a power first baseman that can drive in runs, and that's what Goldy does while hitting for a very solid average and he has no problem getting on base either... not to mention he stole 18 bases in 2012 as well. Goldy's defense has been much better than Votto's this year too. Combine the overall statistics the past two seasons and you'll see that Goldy clearly has the better numbers.


Another thing you should factor in is that Goldschmidt has much worse protection surrounding him... Votto has had more opportunities to drive in runs than Goldy has yet Goldy has far more RBI. Not sure if you're much of an RBI guy but even if you aren't you have to factor in that Goldy does more with less. Put him in the middle of the Reds lineup and who knows the type of numbers he'd put up.
Btw, I hate comparing these two guys because they are both great players and completely different players... but of course I'm going to be a homer and pick Goldy over Votto. I'm not the only one though.

 

[navamind]

Votto was putting up better power numbers than Goldschmidt last year.