The Starting Pitching Championship Belt

[Omar 382]

Grantland introduced this idea to me by doing the "Championship Belt" for running backs and then quarterbacks (The Quarterback Championship Belt). It's a really fun exercise. Basically, you determine who is the "best ____ in the game" for a select period of time while they hold that unofficial title. Who was the best overall player at that position at that moment, and how long did they maintain that level of performance. This doesn't mean they were the absolute best in an individual season, but they had shown a sustained level of dominance to hold the crown.

For instance, the best pitcher in baseball was Zach Greinke for the 2009 MLB season. However, Greinke didn't have the track record of a Roy Halladay. Halladay had been great for years, and was one of the best pitchers in 2009. So he was- arguably- the "Best Pitcher in Baseball" in 2009, even if he wasn't the best that particular season. He had established over the course of several seasons to be the most consistently excellent.

Similarly, I think coming into this season, most would have agreed that Justin Verlander was the "Best Pitcher in Baseball" with Clayton Kershaw hot on his tail. With Verlander's off-year and Kershaw's continued dominance, Kershaw has defeated Verlander for the belt.

So I'd like to open this to the board to start populating the lineage of the "Starting Pitching Championship Belt". I'll start looking at other positions too if this catches on.

2013-present Clayton Kershaw
2011-2013 Justin Verlander
2008-2011 Roy Halladay
2004-2008 Johan Santana
2001-2004 Randy Johnson
1998-2001 Pedro Martinez
1997-1998 Roger Clemens
1992-1997 Greg Maddux
1986-1992 Roger Clemens
1984-1986 Dwight Gooden
1982-1984 Dave Steib
1979-1982 Steve Carlton
1978-1979 Ron Guidry
1975-1978 Tom Seaver
1974-1975 Catfish Hunter
1970-1974 Tom Seaver
1968-1970 Bob Gibson
1967-1968 Jim Bunning
1963-1967 Sandy Koufax
1962-1963 Don Drysdale
1957-1962 Warren Spahn
1955-1957 Don Newcombe
1954-1955 Early Wynn
1950-1954 Robin Roberts
1949-1950 Bob Lemon
1947-1949 Bob Feller
1944-1947 Hal Newhouser
1942-1944 Mort Cooper
1940-1941 Bucky Walters
1939-1940 Bob Feller
1937-1939 Red Ruffing
1930-1937 Lefty Grove
1924-1930 Dazzy Vance
1923-1924 Urban Shocker
1921-1923 Red Faber
1920-1921 Pete Alexander
1919-1920 Walter Johnson
1916-1918 Pete Alexander
1910-1916 Walter Johnson
1907-1910 Christy Mathewson
1906-1907 Mordecai Brown
1903-1906 Christy Mathewson
1902-1903 Rube Waddell
1899-1902 Cy Young
1897-1899 Kid Nichols
1895-1897 Cy Young
1894-1895 Amos Rusie
1892-1894 Cy Young
1890-1892 Kid Nichols
1885-1889 John Clarkson
1883-1885 Old Hoss Radbourn
1882-1883 Larry Corcoran
1881-1882 Jim McCormick
1880-1881 Monte Ward
1876-1880 Tommy Bond
1871-1876 Al Spalding

Toughts? Suggestions? Contributions? Boredom?

Bump. I'm going to update all these great threads from Smarther
2013-2016 Clayton Kershaw

 

[calsnowskier]

I dont have time to read this entire thread right now, so I am not sure what the criteria is/was for determining the belt holder.

However, I would think you would need to look at a 2-year rolling trend (at least) and specify some specific data points to determine who "wins".

For example (this is not a real proposal, just a sample...)

Look at these stats (WAR, ERA, WHIP, FIP, IP, K) and determine some kind of metric to weigh each one. For example, 15 pts for leading the majors, 10 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd (something like). The pitcher with the most "points" is the champ.

 

[Clayton]

I'd imagine the narriative will be Kershaw being the dominant pitcher with Arrieta ready to take the throne if he continues what he did last year. Arrieta being older than Kershaw makes that interesting and probably why Kershaw is still 'the man' entering the year.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Bump. I'm going to update all these great threads from Smarther
2013-2016 Clayton Kershaw

Ke

Bump. I'm going to update all these great threads from Smarther
2013-2016 Clayton Kershaw

13-14 yes, 15 debatable, 16 we'll see

 

[Omar 382]

Ke

13-14 yes, 15 debatable, 16 we'll see

'15- not debatable

 

[UK Cowboy]

'15- not debatable

That's absurd

 

[Omar 382]

That's absurd

nope

 

[Omar 382]

Best WAR, FIP, and xFIP in the majors, second highest K/9, and most IP.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Best WAR, FIP, and xFIP in the majors, second highest K/9, and most IP.

And yet, no Cy Young, so to say it's not "debatable" is ridiculous.
And as awesome as Kershaw was in 2014, the best pitcher was Madison Bumgarner

Post Season 2014-
Kershaw - 0-2, 7.82 ERA. The Dodgers might as well ran out a minor leaguer
Bumgarner - NLCS- 1-0, 1.72 ERA, MVP....WS 2-0, 0.43 ERA, MVP

I'm a big Kershaw fan, but he's not the drop dead best the last 3 years, and you certainly fantasy give him the upcoming year

 

[Omar 382]

And yet, no Cy Young, so to say it's not "debatable" is ridiculous.
And as awesome as Kershaw was in 2014, the best pitcher was Madison Bumgarner

Post Season 2014-
Kershaw - 0-2, 7.82 ERA. The Dodgers might as well ran out a minor leaguer
Bumgarner - NLCS- 1-0, 1.72 ERA, MVP....WS 2-0, 0.43 ERA, MVP

I'm a big Kershaw fan, but he's not the drop dead best the last 3 years, and you certainly fantasy give him the upcoming year

Post season numbers to gauge a whole season... I expect no less of you

 

[StanMarsh51]

Ke

13-14 yes, 15 debatable, 16 we'll see

If you look at the original criteria/guidelines of the OP, the goal isn't to just pick the best player each individual year. It's to pick the best player for an extended stretch of time.

And yes, Kershaw has been the best pitcher over the past few years.

 

[Omar 382]

If you look at the original criteria/guidelines of the OP, the goal isn't to just pick the best player each year. It's to pick the best player for an extended stretch of time.

And yes, Kershaw has been the best pitcher over the past few years.

Regardless, it's a stretch to pick anyone but Kershaw as the best pitcher in 2015. If you really, really value ERA then it's possible, but it's generally agreed there are better ways to go about it.

 

[UK Cowboy]

If you look at the original criteria/guidelines of the OP, the goal isn't to just pick the best player each individual year. It's to pick the best player for an extended stretch of time.

And yes, Kershaw has been the best pitcher over the past few years.

I don't think that's what the OP was going for. Example is Walter Johnson, the greatest pitcher in MLB history. He only won 2 years per the OP, which is understandable, with guys like Mathewson and Brown also having great years, but if you were going by an era or period, Johnson would have been the best for a 10 year stretch

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't think that's what the OP was going for. Example is Walter Johnson, the greatest pitcher in MLB history. He only won 2 years per the OP, which is understandable, with guys like Mathewson and Brown also having great years, but if you were going by an era or period, Johnson would have been the best for a 10 year stretch

Sure he was, otherwise he wouldn't have said this:

This doesn't mean they were the absolute best in an individual season, but they had shown a sustained level of dominance to hold the crown.

For instance, the best pitcher in baseball was Zach Greinke for the 2009 MLB season. However, Greinke didn't have the track record of a Roy Halladay. Halladay had been great for years, and was one of the best pitchers in 2009. So he was- arguably- the "Best Pitcher in Baseball" in 2009, even if he wasn't the best that particular season. He had established over the course of several seasons to be the most consistently excellent.



Now you could replace Halladay with Kershaw, Greinke with Bumgarner, and 2009 with 2014, and it's the exact same logic as the OP was going for...

 

[Omar 382]

I don't think that's what the OP was going for. Example is Walter Johnson, the greatest pitcher in MLB history. He only won 2 years per the OP, which is understandable, with guys like Mathewson and Brown also having great years, but if you were going by an era or period, Johnson would have been the best for a 10 year stretch

He explicitly stated in his opening thread that continued levels of success are what he is measuring. But then again, when have you ever really thought about something and taken the time to properly analyze it?

 

[UK Cowboy]

He explicitly stated in his opening thread that continued levels of success are what he is measuring. But then again, when have you ever really thought about something and taken the time to properly analyze it?

Are you still butt hurt over the spanking you took on the other thread? If that was his meaning, his numbers are jacked. Walter Johnson should have a 10-12 year run, period.
As to your other ridiculous comment about post season play.....ask ANY baseball GM if they'd rather have a great regular season pitcher who gagged in the post season, or a very good starting pitcher who was DOMINATING in the post season, and they will take the latter every time

 

[Omar 382]

Are you still butt hurt over the spanking you took on the other thread? If that was his meaning, his numbers are jacked. Walter Johnson should have a 10-12 year run, period.
As to your other ridiculous comment about post season play.....ask ANY baseball GM if they'd rather have a great regular season pitcher who gagged in the post season, or a very good starting pitcher who was DOMINATING in the post season, and they will take the latter every time

No they wouldn't. Kershaw gave his team nearly 4 more wins in the regular season than Bumgarner did. The <15 innings Kershaw pitched in the playoffs are far too small a sample to say he wasn't good (especially when he pitched nearly 200 innings in the regular season that say he was damn good). By the way, nobody, outside of your partner in retardedness nos, agrees with you on that other thread. Sorry

 

[UK Cowboy]

No they wouldn't. Kershaw gave his team nearly 4 more wins in the regular season than Bumgarner did. The <15 innings Kershaw pitched in the playoffs are far too small a sample to say he wasn't good (especially when he pitched nearly 200 innings in the regular season that say he was damn good). By the way, nobody, outside of your partner in retardedness nos, agrees with you on that other thread. Sorry

Doesn't change the fact that we were both right. And your disregard for post season numbers shows that you are exactly what I thought you were....a fantasy league, WAR rules, stat geek that knows absolutely nothing about the great game of baseball....that's why Championships don't matter to you, it's all about your fantasy league numbers. Clueless......

 

[Omar 382]

Doesn't change the fact that we were both right. And your disregard for post season numbers shows that you are exactly what I thought you were....a fantasy league, WAR rules, stat geek that knows absolutely nothing about the great game of baseball....that's why Championships don't matter to you, it's all about your fantasy league numbers. Clueless......

Precisely the opposite. Championships are all that matter to me. If I could have had 2014 Clayton Kershaw or 2014 Madison Bumgarner on the 2006 Phillies team, I would easily have taken Kershaw. Are you insinuating that Kershaw is inferior to Bumgarner because of a couple of bad playoff games? Even in this ridiculously small sample size, it's clear that Kershaw has gotten bad luck considering his 3.11 xFIP. So, would you rather have Kershaw or Bumgarner in 2016? Just say one of the player's last name without any justification.

 

[calsnowskier]

Precisely the opposite. Championships are all that matter to me. If I could have had 2014 Clayton Kershaw or 2014 Madison Bumgarner on the 2006 Phillies team, I would easily have taken Kershaw. Are you insinuating that Kershaw is inferior to Bumgarner because of a couple of bad playoff games? Even in this ridiculously small sample size, it's clear that Kershaw has gotten bad luck considering his 3.11 xFIP. So, would you rather have Kershaw or Bumgarner in 2016? Just say one of the player's last name without any justification.

If there is a gun to your head, and you HAVE to win this game (and the same pressure is put on the SP)...

Who do you start? Bum or Kershaw?