The Shortstop Championship Belt

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Not knowing everything isn't a problem at all, none of us know everything and most of us don't pretend that we do. But if you don't know that much about the pre-1973 Red Sox, why enter into a conversation and offer a confident opinion on the reason those teams didn't win more?

I do. Just look at my screenname.

 

[uncfan103]

1. Jeter certainly wasn't the worst shortstop in the league in that period.
2. I agree with some of this, I think that Tejada held the belt until 2006 so I think the year should be changed. Jeter, however, certainly did enough to gain the belt in 2006
3. I think you're giving the voters too much credit thinking that they look at any stats at all, even if it is just fielding percentage. I'm sure they rely mostly on "this guy has a reputation and I saw him make a nice play against my team once, I'll vote for him"

You're right, I left out a very important word in my post, "defensive". He was arguably the worst defensive shortstop during that time period.

Thanks for pointing that out, I don't think he is a terrible shortstop.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

You're right, I left out a very important word in my post, "defensive". He was arguably the worst defensive shortstop during that time period.

Thanks for pointing that out, I don't think he is a terrible shortstop.

I don't think I'd agree with your argument. No way anyone could ever convince me that Jeter was a worse defensive shortstop than Miguel Tejada or Carlos Guillen.

Jeter's defense was always overrated, but during his prime, it wasn't *that* bad. From 2010 to now, it's been absolutely, unbearably atrocious, but he was actually very good in 2009 (even the advanced metrics agree), and before that he was below average, but not a poor defender. There were guys during Jeter's prime who were flat-out bad.

Tejada
Guillen
Hanley Ramirez
Michael Young
Rich Aurilia
Felipe Lopez
Deivi Cruz
Cristian Guzman
Angel Berroa
Julio Lugo
Yuniesky Betancourt

All starting shortstops during Jeter's prime who I'd say were worse than Jeter. I know Jeter outranks these guys at the bottom of the Total Zone and Defensive Runs Saved lists, but that's mainly because Jeter stayed at the position and accumulated the most innings by far whereas these guys were all either moved or benched eventually.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Without reading the thread Jose Reyes has to fall in there somewhere. He was arguably the best all around player in baseball for a season or 2 let alone best shortstop. And his D shits on Hanley's.

 

[da55bums]

since no Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel, etc....then its safe to say, that defense really has nothing to do with this list at all and can be called "Best Offensive SS Championship Belt"

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

The BBWAA's seemingly blind attitude toward Alan Trammel is mind-boggling to me. The guy should really already be in the HOF. Last year when they sent their little message to the steroid era, they could have inducted him and Edgar Martinez. (here comes the stupid "DH doesn't count" rebuttals). This is just one man's opinion here. That would have sent a good message to the so-called cheaters, I think.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

since no Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel, etc....then its safe to say, that defense really has nothing to do with this list at all and can be called "Best Offensive SS Championship Belt"

No, it has to do with all around value. Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel were never the best shortstop in baseball. Smith came a lot closer than Vizquel ever did, but Smith was never a better all-around player than Yount, Ripken or Trammell.

 

[da55bums]

lol, so from 1996 to 2000, Omar's superior defense with batting average and SB's doesn't get him even close...got ya...if he hit 20 to 40 hrs...then he would.

Smith was much closer....

like I will repeat, defense is not equally weighed AT ALL, its like Jeter getting the GOLD GLOVE because of his BAT...

 

[DragonfromTO]

lol, so from 1996 to 2000, Omar's superior defense with batting average and SB's doesn't get him even close...got ya...if he hit 20 to 40 hrs...then he would.

Smith was much closer....

like I will repeat, defense is not equally weighed AT ALL, its like Jeter getting the GOLD GLOVE because of his BAT...

Defense is not "equally weighed" for good reason. I'll write it out in equation form this time

Team run scoring = team offensive contributions
Team run prevention = team defensive contributions + team pitching contributions

So if defense is as valuable as offense, then either pitching has no value or a run prevented is significantly more valuable than a run scored. Do you think that either of those things is true?

 

[DragonfromTO]

Here's another way of looking at it... the all-time highest single-season defensive WAR for any position player is 5.3. Derek Jeter's offensive WAR has topped this total in 10 of 17 seasons as a full-time player.

 

[da55bums]

by the way Baseball Almanac doesn't agree with you either...

[SIZE=-1]Fewest Errors[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]In A Seasos (SS)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]150+ Games Played at SS[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]AL[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Cal Ripken, Jr.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Baltimore[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1990[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Omar Vizquel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Cleveland[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]2000[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]NL[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Rey Ordonez[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]New York[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1999[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Omar Vizquel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]San Francisco[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]2006[/SIZE]

not only was Vizquel the best ever in a season, he has the ALL TIME record in the AL and the NL, just to prove a point, lol​

 

[DragonfromTO]

by the way Baseball Almanac doesn't agree with you either...

[SIZE=-1]Fewest Errors[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]In A Seasos (SS)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]150+ Games Played at SS[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]AL[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Cal Ripken, Jr.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Baltimore[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1990[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Omar Vizquel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Cleveland[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]2000[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]NL[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Rey Ordonez[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]New York[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1999[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Omar Vizquel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]San Francisco[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]2006[/SIZE]

not only was Vizquel the best ever in a season, he has the ALL TIME record in the AL and the NL, just to prove a point, lol​

Looking at error totals to judge defensive value suggests that the player's goal on defense is to avoid errors. I think if you asked Omar he'd say that his goal on every pitch was not to avoid an error but to get the batter/runner out.

 

[da55bums]

Defense is not "equally weighed" for good reason. I'll write it out in equation form this time

Team run scoring = team offensive contributions
Team run prevention = team defensive contributions + team pitching contributions

So if defense is as valuable as offense, then either pitching has no value or a run prevented is significantly more valuable than a run scored. Do you think that either of those things is true?

fair enough, like I said in the beginning, offense is the key to this Belt list.....defense is glanced at and not very important at all.....thats all I said in the beginning...

 

[da55bums]

Looking at error totals to judge defensive value suggests that the player's goal on defense is to avoid errors. I think if you asked Omar he'd say that his goal on every pitch was not to avoid an error but to get the batter/runner out.

seriously? all players defensive goals is to get the batters out, they don't stop and think about if they will make an error or not...unless your talking about fringe players.

and they sure don't care about WAR, DWAR and Sabermetrics, lol...

 

[da55bums]

accidently ran across this while looking up some other info....Ozzy Smith's career offensive WAR better than Brooks Robinson, Ichiro, David Wright...didn't see who else, just happened by the info. if he is ranked that high in offensive WAR for his career...then the defense would put him absolutely up there...

but hey, its not my list, so its right for you.

 

[StanMarsh51]

accidently ran across this while looking up some other info....Ozzy Smith's career offensive WAR better than Brooks Robinson, Ichiro, David Wright...didn't see who else, just happened by the info. if he is ranked that high in offensive WAR for his career...then the defense would put him absolutely up there...

but hey, its not my list, so its right for you.

WAR's a cumulative stat...Smith's offensive WAR is 47.9 in 10,778 plate appearances and Wright's is 47.6 in 5,927 plate appearances....Wright's going to easily pass Smith, and then some (barring a sudden end to his career) so why even bring him up. Smith also has 1,500 more plate appearances than Ichiro and is barely ahead of him in WAR, so again, how does this help Smith?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

lol, so from 1996 to 2000, Omar's superior defense with batting average and SB's doesn't get him even close...got ya...if he hit 20 to 40 hrs...then he would.

Smith was much closer....

like I will repeat, defense is not equally weighed AT ALL, its like Jeter getting the GOLD GLOVE because of his BAT...

You're actually suggesting that Vizquel was equal or superior to A-Rod, Nomar and Jeter in the late 1990s? Because of defense, batting average and steals?

But you're "lolling" at me?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

by the way Baseball Almanac doesn't agree with you either...

[SIZE=-1]Fewest Errors[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]In A Seasos (SS)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]150+ Games Played at SS[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]AL[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Cal Ripken, Jr.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Baltimore[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1990[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Omar Vizquel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Cleveland[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]2000[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]NL[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Rey Ordonez[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]New York[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1999[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Omar Vizquel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]San Francisco[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]2006[/SIZE]​

not only was Vizquel the best ever in a season, he has the ALL TIME record in the AL and the NL, just to prove a point, lol​

This was supposed to prove a point?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

fair enough, like I said in the beginning, offense is the key to this Belt list.....defense is glanced at and not very important at all.....thats all I said in the beginning...

Except that this statement is completely wrong. Well done.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

accidently ran across this while looking up some other info....Ozzy Smith's career offensive WAR better than Brooks Robinson, Ichiro, David Wright...didn't see who else, just happened by the info. if he is ranked that high in offensive WAR for his career...then the defense would put him absolutely up there...

but hey, its not my list, so its right for you.

What does career value have to do with this discussion?

Ozzie is easily an all-time great and worthy HOFer, so I'm not sure what your point is with this post either. Smith was very underrated offensively. Smith was never a better all-around player (defense included) than Yount, Ripken or Trammell for any extended period of time.