The Starting Pitching Championship Belt

[Tacoma_canuck]

Good stuff. This is really interesting and obviously fans from different teams will have their own guy at times, too.That's okay. It's not like this is the end all/ be all, just fun stuff and gives people food for thougt on the history of the game. I am glad to see Dave Stieb's inclusion for that period from late 82 through the 83 season. He often gets over-looked because of playing in Toronto or because the so-called experts just didn't see him enough or ignore what they saw. The guy was a really great pitcher who deserves some credit for what he did.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I will admit to being biased, but for 2006-2011 Jon Lester deserves consideration.

A 76-34 record for a lefty playing his home games in Fenway Park is meritorious.
His record being below .500 last year had at least as much to do with playing for
an absolutely atrocious manager as anything he was doing wrong himself.

If Bobby Valentine has never managed your team be glad of it. He, as I've said elsewhere,
is CLUELESS about when to relieve tiring pitchers. The worst I've seen in 40 years of following baseball.

No he doesn't

Why would you even include 2006 and 2007 when he didn't even pitch 100 innings in either of those years and had a 4.68 ERA those years..it doesn't help his (already weak) case at all

From 2006-2011, Lester didn't have a better season in any year over Halladay nor Sabathia. So if Halladay and Sabathia were better during every season of that stretch, how does Lester get consideration for being the best?

 

[navamind]

Even if you look at 08-11, there's at least a half dozen pitchers I'd take over Lester. Lester was very good, but come on.

 

[broncosmitty]

Lester wouldn't have even sniffed a championship bout, nevermind the belt.

 

[broncosmitty]

No Denny McLain? (I hate the guy, so Im not really upset)

 

[broncosmitty]

I feel a little snub for Morris too. More wins in the 80s than anyone,..... a straight up stud in the post season, but Clemens and Doc were great. Solid work Arther! Walter Johnson never ceases to amaze me.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Good stuff. This is really interesting and obviously fans from different teams will have their own guy at times, too.That's okay. It's not like this is the end all/ be all, just fun stuff and gives people food for thougt on the history of the game. I am glad to see Dave Stieb's inclusion for that period from late 82 through the 83 season. He often gets over-looked because of playing in Toronto or because the so-called experts just didn't see him enough or ignore what they saw. The guy was a really great pitcher who deserves some credit for what he did.

Can you cite an example in my list? This is done from a completely objective POV.

I also don't care where a player plays (unless his park skews his performance). Media market size has no influence.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I will admit to being biased, but for 2006-2011 Jon Lester deserves consideration.

A 76-34 record for a lefty playing his home games in Fenway Park is meritorious.
His record being below .500 last year had at least as much to do with playing for
an absolutely atrocious manager as anything he was doing wrong himself.

If Bobby Valentine has never managed your team be glad of it. He, as I've said elsewhere,
is CLUELESS about when to relieve tiring pitchers. The worst I've seen in 40 years of following baseball.

No. No he doesn't.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I feel a little snub for Morris too. More wins in the 80s than anyone,..... a straight up stud in the post season, but Clemens and Doc were great. Solid work Arther! Walter Johnson never ceases to amaze me.

Morris's issue in this case is similar to the reasons why he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. Morris was never consistently great. He was way to inconsistent to take the belt.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I feel a little snub for Morris too. More wins in the 80s than anyone,..... a straight up stud in the post season, but Clemens and Doc were great. Solid work Arther! Walter Johnson never ceases to amaze me.

Blue Jays fans sure don't remember him that way.

3.80 career postseason ERA suggests otherwise too. Looking at the breakout I see 3 excellent postseason series, 1 somewhat average one and 3 dreadful ones.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

Can you cite an example in my list? This is done from a completely objective POV.

I also don't care where a player plays (unless his park skews his performance). Media market size has no influence.

I didn't mean that as a shot at you or the list or anyone, just that in general some guys will come on here and state a case for "their guy" regardless of anything tangible. I'm personally fine with the list. Sorry if that's how it came across.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

Morris is a good example of what I was saying earlier. People remember some of the great things like that showdown with Smoltz, etc. but he really was never the best in the game for any stretch of time.

 

[Brahmsian]

Should have had Bob Gibson more than once, IMO.

What years I'm not prepared to say yet.

 

[Brahmsian]

My apologies for not having noticed you had Gibson for 3 consecutive years on the same line.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Can you cite an example in my list? This is done from a completely objective POV.

I also don't care where a player plays (unless his park skews his performance). Media market size has no influence.

While he's certainly a defensible choice I'm not certain that Catfish Hunter would have sneaked in there for a couple of years if he'd never been a Yankee. Pitchers are tough to do this for I know, since there's often less separating the top choices than at other positions. Seems like his Yankeeness might have been a tiebreaker though... like I said I'm fine with it, he's certainly defensible.

 

[StanMarsh51]

]I feel a little snub for Morris too. More wins in the 80s than anyon[/B]e,..... a straight up stud in the post season, but Clemens and Doc were great. Solid work Arther! Walter Johnson never ceases to amaze me.

He won the most games in the '80s because many of the guys who were better didn't pitch the full decade (ie - Gooden, Clemens, Hershiser, Saberhagen)...I'd also put Stieb over Morris in the '80s, who had a better ERA, WHIP, OPSA in about 100 less innings for the decade.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Morris is a good example of what I was saying earlier. People remember some of the great things like that showdown with Smoltz, etc. but he really was never the best in the game for any stretch of time.

I don't know if there's a single season where Morris was a top 3 pitcher....basically a 1980s Andy Pettitte (roids argument aside).

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

I don't know, 83, he was probably up there pretty close but no, for the most part, he was never really one of the top guys in the game. He won his share of games and was a workhorse but he was also on some pretty good teams. The 84 post-season was great and the 91 WS was his really big moment. The rest was pretty average in comparison to guys like Clemons and Gooden.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I don't know, 83, he was probably up there pretty close but no, for the most part, he was never really one of the top guys in the game. He won his share of games and was a workhorse but he was also on some pretty good teams. The 84 post-season was great and the 91 WS was his really big moment. The rest was pretty average in comparison to guys like Clemons and Gooden.

'83's an interesting year, as there a few were guys with better numbers who didn't throw as many innings, so it really becomes an issue of how much of a tradeoff is there for innings vs better #'s

I would take Stieb for sure in '83 over Morris (shame he didn't get a single Cy vote). I'd also take Soto. John Denny's one of the guys described above, as he had a 2.37 ERA in 242 innings, but threw 50 less IP than Morris.

 

[Tacoma_canuck]

Yeah, that's how I look at 83 too. The IP, CG and all that were really good but some of the other numbers not so much. He did finish 3rd in CYA voting but that doesn't mean much considering they completely ignored Stieb. They completely over-valued the 20 wins, IMO. Stieb was 17-12, Morris 20-13.