Series Thread: ECF: Boston Celtics vs Cleveland Cavs

[Shaqdaddy11]

@WiggyRuss
Why don’t you ever mention how many poor FA decisions that the Cavs made during LeBrons first stint there?

Isn’t that ultimately what drove him to leave?

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

@WiggyRuss @WiggyRuss

Please argue with unbiased FACT.


How is Dan Gilbert's petulance, poor plan rewarded with LeBron James?
With the Rocket's whiffing on Chris Bosh and Dan Gilbert landing LeBron James, exactly what is the point of actually being smart in team building?

• by Matt Moore
• @MattMooreCBS
• Jul 13, 2014 • 6 min read

The point of competitive systems is to reward superior strategy and engagement with success. The NBA has the lottery, but its purpose has been to even talent discrepancies using a weighted chance system to make tanking less attractive. But the entire league isn't supposed to be determined by luck. Luck plays a part in which No. 1 picks become transcendent and which wind up as punch lines. It plays a part in injuries and, to a degree, the bounce of the ball off the rim.

Luck should not decide who's good and who's not. And more than anything, bad management seemingly should limit how much success is achieved, even if you do happen to hit the jackpot in the lottery once.

And yet, here we are.

The big winners of the 2014 NBA offseason are the Cleveland Cavaliers and the big losers are the Houston Rockets. Except Houston has been run well, and Cleveland has been a disaster. Go figure.

After James left in 2010, Dan Gilbert was ... a little upset. There's the letter, sure. But Gilbert pretty much went into petulant child mode. Remember, he was at the forefront of owner outcry over the nixed the Chris Paul deal that would have sent him to the Lakers. After what the Heat pulled, Gilbert essentially decided superteams are the mortal and moral enemy of his empire. Beyond that, he relentlessly pursued the playoffs. He seemed desperate to land a first-round matchup with Miami, to provide Cleveland with a chance at redemption, even though they would have been waxed. This is in part because of how much money he would have made off such an alignment.

He took shortcut after shortcut trying to get back to the playoffs. There was no patience, no rebuilding plan. Drafting Dion Waiters, trying to nab a transcendent surprise talent. Signing Jarrett Jack. Keeping Anderson Varejao. The Cavs spurned a methodical, well-planned rebuild in favor of a win-now-at-all-costs approach. And it was catastrophic. In a system like the NFL, where the worst team gets the No. 1 overall pick and so on, the Cavaliers would have been stuck in neutral, trying to find their way out of mud Gilbert put them in.

Yet the "karmic" gods, or whatever, have rewarded Gilbert, despite his

failings. Three No. 1 picks in four years. Three. It's like the basketball gods were giving Gilbert the ultimate "Good Job, Good Effort." That stacked the roster, even if you don't think Anthony Bennett will ever amount to anything. (P.S.: It's too soon for that, the kid has looked good in Summer League.) Remember, in 2012 this same team was partying at the lottery and yelling, "We're never coming back here again!" The Cavs were back the next year. And they won. Again.

And then there's the lockout.

In the lockout, Gilbert led the charge of owners seeking supreme tax penalties on superteams, making them nearly impossible to maintain (beyond Miami, look at what's going on in Brooklyn). It was his side pushing for a bigger percentage of Basketball Related Income. It was his side putting more restrictive limits on what the max stars could make.

Everything that frustrated LeBron James about this season?

Gilbert did that. Everything that James and the players have championed for? Micky Arison may not have been gung-ho about it, but he was more on that side that Gilbert's.

But he couldn't even keep all of his veterans, including one of James' favorites, in part because of the league's new punitive tax measures. Those measures, strongly supported by spurned Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert, were directed at least in part at breaking up Big Three-type rosters, or at least making them extraordinarily expensive to maintain and bolster. And after three injury-plagued seasons, Miller was sacrificed, with Micky Arison using the amnesty provision to save roughly $17 million in luxury taxes for the 2013-14 season and create some future flexibility.

That decision backfired, and not just because Miller miraculously played all 82 games for Memphis, shooting 45 percent from three-point range. James started the season irritated by Miller's departure, played the season irritated that Miller wasn't available to fill in for Wade and finished the season irritated that the veterans left behind -- without useful youthful reinforcements -- had broken down. It's impossible to know how much that played into his decision to return to Cleveland, or at least to return earlier than he anticipated, since he wrote in the essay that he always planned to someday.

But it certainly didn't help.

So Gilbert took vindictive measures against a system that cost him a superstar because he failed to secure enough talent to keep the superstar at home. He ran the team into the ground trying to make the playoffs to no avail. He fired his coach three times in four seasons (including the same guy twice!) and fired his GM. And he made efforts to ensure James and superstars like him would be paid less while also ensuring it would not be viable for those stars to team up with other superstar talent for a long period of time.

For this, he was rewarded with three No. 1 picks and the best player on the planet signing with his team as a free agent.

Life's not fair, but shouldn't it at least make sense at some point in this process?

 

[Heatles84]

I don't understand why you think what he's worth means anything. He could be a multi-trillionaire and it wouldn't mean shit because he can't get around the salary cap.

No matter how much money he has, the Cavs are still a team with bad contracts that are going to be difficult to unload.

This is just the thing that Wiggy never seems to grasp. Doesn't matter your net worth whether you're worth $1 billion or if you're as rich as Warren Buffett - you still have to abide by a salary cap. Balmer's the richest owner in the NBA, why isn't he outspending the rest of the league?

 

[gordontrue]

LeBron's teams have a habit of responding very well after game 1 losses. I'm actually feeling quite confident about tonight's game.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

This is just the thing that Wiggy never seems to grasp. Doesn't matter your net worth whether you're worth $1 billion or if you're as rich as Warren Buffett - you still have to abide by a salary cap. Balmer's the richest owner in the NBA, why isn't he outspending the rest of the league?

Also, it's another thing to consider paying luxury tax on players like Durant, Klay, Curry and Green because keeping them together will highly likely bring you championships and the monetary benefits of winning them.

To write a repeater penalty check to stare at Tristan and J.R.??

#nothanks

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

LeBron's teams have a habit of responding very well after game 1 losses. I'm actually feeling quite confident about tonight's game.

Pretty much a guarantee that James will respond well.
Can the rest of the team is what needs to be seen.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Holy Christ.
I get your premise, but the Cavs, minus James havent won a playoff series since 1992.
Quit acting like they’ve played chess.
If anything, in their case, its the exact opposite.
They’ve won playing very low % BINGO.

well Gilbert also only bought the team in, what? 2005? I can hardly blame Dan Gilbert for 1992

 

[WiggyRuss]

@WiggyRuss @WiggyRuss

Please argue with unbiased FACT.


How is Dan Gilbert's petulance, poor plan rewarded with LeBron James?
With the Rocket's whiffing on Chris Bosh and Dan Gilbert landing LeBron James, exactly what is the point of actually being smart in team building?

• by Matt Moore
• @MattMooreCBS
• Jul 13, 2014 • 6 min read

The point of competitive systems is to reward superior strategy and engagement with success. The NBA has the lottery, but its purpose has been to even talent discrepancies using a weighted chance system to make tanking less attractive. But the entire league isn't supposed to be determined by luck. Luck plays a part in which No. 1 picks become transcendent and which wind up as punch lines. It plays a part in injuries and, to a degree, the bounce of the ball off the rim.

Luck should not decide who's good and who's not. And more than anything, bad management seemingly should limit how much success is achieved, even if you do happen to hit the jackpot in the lottery once.

And yet, here we are.

The big winners of the 2014 NBA offseason are the Cleveland Cavaliers and the big losers are the Houston Rockets. Except Houston has been run well, and Cleveland has been a disaster. Go figure.

After James left in 2010, Dan Gilbert was ... a little upset. There's the letter, sure. But Gilbert pretty much went into petulant child mode. Remember, he was at the forefront of owner outcry over the nixed the Chris Paul deal that would have sent him to the Lakers. After what the Heat pulled, Gilbert essentially decided superteams are the mortal and moral enemy of his empire. Beyond that, he relentlessly pursued the playoffs. He seemed desperate to land a first-round matchup with Miami, to provide Cleveland with a chance at redemption, even though they would have been waxed. This is in part because of how much money he would have made off such an alignment.

He took shortcut after shortcut trying to get back to the playoffs. There was no patience, no rebuilding plan. Drafting Dion Waiters, trying to nab a transcendent surprise talent. Signing Jarrett Jack. Keeping Anderson Varejao. The Cavs spurned a methodical, well-planned rebuild in favor of a win-now-at-all-costs approach. And it was catastrophic. In a system like the NFL, where the worst team gets the No. 1 overall pick and so on, the Cavaliers would have been stuck in neutral, trying to find their way out of mud Gilbert put them in.

Yet the "karmic" gods, or whatever, have rewarded Gilbert, despite his

failings. Three No. 1 picks in four years. Three. It's like the basketball gods were giving Gilbert the ultimate "Good Job, Good Effort." That stacked the roster, even if you don't think Anthony Bennett will ever amount to anything. (P.S.: It's too soon for that, the kid has looked good in Summer League.) Remember, in 2012 this same team was partying at the lottery and yelling, "We're never coming back here again!" The Cavs were back the next year. And they won. Again.

And then there's the lockout.

In the lockout, Gilbert led the charge of owners seeking supreme tax penalties on superteams, making them nearly impossible to maintain (beyond Miami, look at what's going on in Brooklyn). It was his side pushing for a bigger percentage of Basketball Related Income. It was his side putting more restrictive limits on what the max stars could make.

Everything that frustrated LeBron James about this season?

Gilbert did that. Everything that James and the players have championed for? Micky Arison may not have been gung-ho about it, but he was more on that side that Gilbert's.

But he couldn't even keep all of his veterans, including one of James' favorites, in part because of the league's new punitive tax measures. Those measures, strongly supported by spurned Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert, were directed at least in part at breaking up Big Three-type rosters, or at least making them extraordinarily expensive to maintain and bolster. And after three injury-plagued seasons, Miller was sacrificed, with Micky Arison using the amnesty provision to save roughly $17 million in luxury taxes for the 2013-14 season and create some future flexibility.

That decision backfired, and not just because Miller miraculously played all 82 games for Memphis, shooting 45 percent from three-point range. James started the season irritated by Miller's departure, played the season irritated that Miller wasn't available to fill in for Wade and finished the season irritated that the veterans left behind -- without useful youthful reinforcements -- had broken down. It's impossible to know how much that played into his decision to return to Cleveland, or at least to return earlier than he anticipated, since he wrote in the essay that he always planned to someday.

But it certainly didn't help.

So Gilbert took vindictive measures against a system that cost him a superstar because he failed to secure enough talent to keep the superstar at home. He ran the team into the ground trying to make the playoffs to no avail. He fired his coach three times in four seasons (including the same guy twice!) and fired his GM. And he made efforts to ensure James and superstars like him would be paid less while also ensuring it would not be viable for those stars to team up with other superstar talent for a long period of time.

For this, he was rewarded with three No. 1 picks and the best player on the planet signing with his team as a free agent.

Life's not fair, but shouldn't it at least make sense at some point in this process?

the guy makes the argument that you should not tank.

He is saying Houston "is run well" because they never tanked.

And Cleveland is run bad because they tanked.

Well- I think you are run poorly if you ignore how the system is set and do stupid shit like sign a bunch of mediocre free agents long term deals and top out as a 1st round knock out.

The guy is saying the following is stupid- when it comes down to he is just gaming the system, just like the Sixers did, just like the Thunder did, etc.

So Gilbert took vindictive measures against a system that cost him a superstar because he failed to secure enough talent to keep the superstar at home. He ran the team into the ground trying to make the playoffs to no avail.

This guy is obviously butt hurt. he does not like to see teams tank. I dont think ANY of us LIKE to see teams tank- however- as long as the system is set up that way its a strategy that has huge benefits.

I mean look at your Heat- there is not a team that is positioned worse in the entire league to add elite talent in the next 2 years and they never tanked --- the guy that wrote this article would really like and respect that--- but unfortunately for him and your Heat- the result is perpetual mediocrity.

Why are their Sam Hinkie posters at Sixers games? Why did LeBron even CONSIDER coming back to Cleveland? How did the Thunder put together a team of RW, Durant, Harden and Ibaka at one point? TANKING. This guy might not like it--- and as i said- NO ONE likes it- but as long as its a strategy that works the smart teams will take advantage of it- and the dumb ones like the Heat will not get home court in the East, not win a playoff series, and have no avenue to add a star.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

LeBron's teams have a habit of responding very well after game 1 losses. I'm actually feeling quite confident about tonight's game.

I expect LeBron to have a big game and the Cavs to win tonight.

 

[WiggyRuss]

This is just the thing that Wiggy never seems to grasp. Doesn't matter your net worth whether you're worth $1 billion or if you're as rich as Warren Buffett - you still have to abide by a salary cap. Balmer's the richest owner in the NBA, why isn't he outspending the rest of the league?

of course you have to operate with the salary cap.

That has not stopped Gilbert from writing the largest checks in the history of the league the last two years since him and his staff have found ways to continue to add talent even thoguh every single year with LeBron is a GO FOR IT year.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Also, it's another thing to consider paying luxury tax on players like Durant, Klay, Curry and Green because keeping them together will highly likely bring you championships and the monetary benefits of winning them.

To write a repeater penalty check to stare at Tristan and J.R.??

#nothanks

yah--- youd rather have a low seed, and get your brains beat in by the Sixers with Whtieside and Tyler Johnson making 45 million a year

#nothanks lol.

 

[WiggyRuss]

In the lockout, Gilbert led the charge of owners seeking supreme tax penalties on superteams, making them nearly impossible to maintain (beyond Miami, look at what's going on in Brooklyn). It was his side pushing for a bigger percentage of Basketball Related Income. It was his side putting more restrictive limits on what the max stars could make.

Gilbert ABSOLUTELY did this---- and what happened? he is one ofthe few guys in the league that is willing to PAY those "supreme tax penalties"---- he made it harder for guys that are cheap like Arison- while knowing he would do it himself. lol......thats great if you ask me.

Every single thing he has done has been in the name of self-interest which is EXACTLY what i wwant out of my owner. I laugh my ass off everytime someone brings up how Gilbert and Cuban helped fuck over the Lakers on Chris Paul. I laugh my ass off when i see how LeBron got frustrated with Arison's cheapness which is part of the reason that drew LeBron back to Cleveland. All of these things BENEFITED Gilbert and the Cleveland Cavaliers. you could not ask for a savvier, better chess player.

 

[Heatles84]

of course you have to operate with the salary cap.

That has not stopped Gilbert from writing the largest checks in the history of the league the last two years since him and his staff have found ways to continue to add talent even thoguh every single year with LeBron is a GO FOR IT year.

The bad thing is that over a 4 year time frame, Cleveland may only have 1 title to show for it.

What talent was added, just out of curiosity?

 

[Heatles84]

In the lockout, Gilbert led the charge of owners seeking supreme tax penalties on superteams, making them nearly impossible to maintain (beyond Miami, look at what's going on in Brooklyn). It was his side pushing for a bigger percentage of Basketball Related Income. It was his side putting more restrictive limits on what the max stars could make.

Gilbert ABSOLUTELY did this---- and what happened? he is one ofthe few guys in the league that is willing to PAY those "supreme tax penalties"---- he made it harder for guys that are cheap like Arison- while knowing he would do it himself. lol......thats great if you ask me.

Every single thing he has done has been in the name of self-interest which is EXACTLY what i wwant out of my owner. I laugh my ass off everytime someone brings up how Gilbert and Cuban helped fuck over the Lakers on Chris Paul. I laugh my ass off when i see how LeBron got frustrated with Arison's cheapness which is part of the reason that drew LeBron back to Cleveland. All of these things BENEFITED Gilbert and the Cleveland Cavaliers. you could not ask for a savvier, better chess player.

Hindsight, my friend.

Gilbert at the time wasn't aware that Lebron was coming back. He had a disaster of a team that just set a record for consecutive losses during a regular season in 2011. Gilbert didn't like the idea of a super team at the time, because he didn't have one. You call his approach genius, I think its now idiotic. Because guess what? In the end, he cost himself more money not seeing into the long term.

You keep mentioning Arison's cheapness, this has become a tired argument that despite the facts and arguments thrown your way, you instead chose to ignore. There's a well known sports debater that follows the same pattern, his name is Skip Bayless.

And I wouldn't say Dan Gilbert is willing to outspend everyone. That team in Golden State seems to be ready to pony up cash, and they actually have titles to show for it. Also, if Gilbert was so willing, why does Lebron keep signing these short-term deals?

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

the guy makes the argument that you should not tank.

He is saying Houston "is run well" because they never tanked.

And Cleveland is run bad because they tanked.

Well- I think you are run poorly if you ignore how the system is set and do stupid shit like sign a bunch of mediocre free agents long term deals and top out as a 1st round knock out.

The guy is saying the following is stupid- when it comes down to he is just gaming the system, just like the Sixers did, just like the Thunder did, etc.

So Gilbert took vindictive measures against a system that cost him a superstar because he failed to secure enough talent to keep the superstar at home. He ran the team into the ground trying to make the playoffs to no avail.

This guy is obviously butt hurt. he does not like to see teams tank. I dont think ANY of us LIKE to see teams tank- however- as long as the system is set up that way its a strategy that has huge benefits.

I mean look at your Heat- there is not a team that is positioned worse in the entire league to add elite talent in the next 2 years and they never tanked --- the guy that wrote this article would really like and respect that--- but unfortunately for him and your Heat- the result is perpetual mediocrity.

Why are their Sam Hinkie posters at Sixers games? Why did LeBron even CONSIDER coming back to Cleveland? How did the Thunder put together a team of RW, Durant, Harden and Ibaka at one point? TANKING. This guy might not like it--- and as i said- NO ONE likes it- but as long as its a strategy that works the smart teams will take advantage of it- and the dumb ones like the Heat will not get home court in the East, not win a playoff series, and have no avenue to add a star.

They didn’t tank.
They wanted the 8 seed to try to prove a point and beat the Heat, plus cash in on the hype of the series.

End of the day, luck is great, luck counts, but pleaese quit trying to spin it as a plan so this debate can end.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Hindsight, my friend.

Gilbert at the time wasn't aware that Lebron was coming back. He had a disaster of a team that just set a record for consecutive losses during a regular season in 2011. Gilbert didn't like the idea of a super team at the time, because he didn't have one. You call his approach genius, I think its now idiotic. Because guess what? In the end, he cost himself more money not seeing into the long term.

You keep mentioning Arison's cheapness, this has become a tired argument that despite the facts and arguments thrown your way, you instead chose to ignore. There's a well known sports debater that follows the same pattern, his name is Skip Bayless.

And I wouldn't say Dan Gilbert is willing to outspend everyone. That team in Golden State seems to be ready to pony up cash, and they actually have titles to show for it. Also, if Gilbert was so willing, why does Lebron keep signing these short-term deals?

I read that Gilbert ( if James stays), won’t agree to give him a no trade clause.

#tiredofbeingheldhostage

 

[WiggyRuss]

The bad thing is that over a 4 year time frame, Cleveland may only have 1 title to show for it.

What talent was added, just out of curiosity?

this year? taking on Hill, Hood, Clarkson and Nance ---- all guys that should be with the Cavs for years to come.

the year before they took on Kyle Korver.

the year before that they took on Channing Frye

the year before that they dealt for JR and Shumpert and Mozgov

EVEN though they were already OVER the salary cap they made every one of those moves and took on more and more salary to do 2 things--- to try and give The Cavs even the SLIGHTEST better chance to win - and to indicate to LEBron- YES- we are trying JUST as hard as you are- and we will not leave any stone unturned, no opportunity unexplored, no piece that can possibly help us on the table. Which is in STARK CONTRAST to Mickey Cheap ASs Arison.

have you not noticed that DESPITE being over the cap every single year they find a way to add a piece? to show LeBron that YES- we are doing whatever we can and spending whatever we can to try and win? That we have no intention of EVER EVER EVER even having the perception that we arent trying - like the Heat doing UNFORGIVABLE acts of cheapness like amnestying miller, leaving their mid level exception unused, trading a first round pick JUST to save money on Joel ANthony's awful contract. How can you do that when you have one of the greatest players in the history of the game in his prime on your team?

It's unforgivable. It's unexplainable. It's embarrassing.

How could an NBA owner even look LeBron James in the eye and tell him- nope- im saving luxury tax money and not using my mid level exception---- that is HUMILIATING. It boggles my mind that an NBA owner would not do every single thing in their power to give LeBron James every single ounce of help no matter HOW incremental- even if at the VERY VERY least its just pure perception and a message to LeBron that YES we are doing everything we can do.

Despite Gilbert and LeBron's personal issues- that is something that Gilbert has done every single year he has been back- he has shown LeBron that we are motivated, willing and will explore and execute every single opportunity that is out there. LeBron did not get that in Miami and its one of the reasons he left.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

yah--- youd rather have a low seed, and get your brains beat in by the Sixers with Whtieside and Tyler Johnson making 45 million a year

#nothanks lol.

Nice spin, but in this debate its not a matter of ‘would you’.
Nobody can predict the future.

Point is, once again, Gilbert had no great plan. He got lotto ball lucky 3x.

 

[WiggyRuss]

The bad thing is that over a 4 year time frame, Cleveland may only have 1 title to show for it.

What talent was added, just out of curiosity?

the "bad thing" lol.....Cleveland hadnt had a TITLE IN ANY SPORT IN OVER 50 years!! lol....there will be a statute outside of Quicken Loans arena someday of the owner and player that finally brought a title to Cleveland.

And If the Cavs never tanked- LeBron would have never come back. He couldnt have- if the Cavs tried to win and get a crappy seed and a first round elimination they would have nver ahd the assets and cap room to lure him back.

 

[Heatles84]

They didn’t tank.
They wanted the 8 seed to try to prove a point and beat the Heat, plus cash in on the hype of the series.

End of the day, luck is great, luck counts, but pleaese quit trying to spin it as a plan so this debate can end.

Not many teams are going to find success if their plan is to get 3 #1 picks in 4 years. Cleveland got extremely lucky.