Dynasty 1

[TREFF]

I agree that it should be negative Treff, and it still would be worth -4 in your scenario, I just think that it's way too hard to counteract the negatives with the positives since fumbles and interceptions are only worth 2 and sacks are worth 1. Right now if your quarterback throws 2 pick 6's and then your defense gets you 2 interceptions, a fumble recovery, and 3 sacks, but it gives up 21 more points and 400 yards, you are at -1 point. That just seems ridiculous to me. Once again though, that's just my opinion.

I'd be more up for upping the award for sacks, TO's, and such than to make it easier to absorb a bad defensive performance.

I honestly don't care strongly enough to make a big deal either way, but a shitty defensive performance should receive a shitty score..period

 

[TREFF]

given that by year three, deals have been made, cuts made, yada yada, based on what the scoring system is, any changes should really be balanced. If we're taking the negative and cutting out some, than the positive needs to be equally changed, if the possible negative is lessened, the possible positive needs to be increased to maintain the value of perceived "elite" D's, Shutouts worth more, 1-6 more, 7-whatever more.

Just changing one end waters down the gap between the good D's, and the bads, making the whole lot of them lessened in value. No would ever propose scoring changes to mitigate the scoring difference between Rodgers and Kizor, we probably shouldn't do it with D's either

 

[Bandit]

given that by year three, deals have been made, cuts made, yada yada, based on what the scoring system is, any changes should really be balanced. If we're taking the negative and cutting out some, than the positive needs to be equally changed, if the possible negative is lessened, the possible positive needs to be increased to maintain the value of perceived "elite" D's, Shutouts worth more, 1-6 more, 7-whatever more.

Just changing one end waters down the gap between the good D's, and the bads, making the whole lot of them lessened in value. No would ever propose scoring changes to mitigate the scoring difference between Rodgers and Kizor, we probably shouldn't do it with D's either

I'd be up for whatever change you want to do as long as it's changed. I don't think the comparison between quarterbacks is fair though. Aaron Rodgers is Aaron Rodgers every year, but elite defenses rarely stay elite defenses. Hell, the best defense last year was on waivers before the season started and that would never happen with the best quarterbacks. And I'm not so sure that any scoring difference would have really changed anybody's draft strategy three years ago either. Once again though, that's just me. You guys might have taken a defense earlier if the scoring was different. This is what we have the A league and the B league of the MBBRL and I've never thought that good defenses don't rise above bad defenses:

Interception Return TD (INTTD) 6
Fumble Return TD (FRTD) 6
Kickoff Return TD (KRTD) 6
Punt Return TD (PRTD) 6
Blocked Punt or FG return for TD (BLKKRTD) 6
Blocked Punt, PAT or FG (BLKK) 2
Each Sack (SK) 1
Each Interception (INT) 2
Each Fumble Recovered (FR) 2
Each Safety (SF) 2
0 points allowed (PA0) 8
1-6 points allowed (PA1) 8
7-13 points allowed (PA7) 6
14-17 points allowed (PA14) 4
18-21 points allowed (PA18) 4
22-27 points allowed (PA22) 2
28-34 points allowed - 0
35-45 points allowed (PA35) -2
46+ points allowed (PA46) -4
Less than 100 total yards allowed (YA100) 12
100-199 total yards allowed (YA199) 6
200-299 total yards allowed (YA299) 2
300-399 total yards allowed - 0
400-449 total yards allowed (YA449) -2
450-499 total yards allowed (YA499) -3
500-549 total yards allowed (YA549) -4
550+ total yards allowed (YA550) -5

 

[leftypower]

I agree that it should be negative Treff, and it still would be worth -4 in your scenario, I just think that it's way too hard to counteract the negatives with the positives since fumbles and interceptions are only worth 2 and sacks are worth 1. Right now if your quarterback throws 2 pick 6's and then your defense gets you 2 interceptions, a fumble recovery, and 3 sacks, but it gives up 21 more points and 400 yards, you are at -1 point. That just seems ridiculous to me. Once again though, that's just my opinion.

I'd be more up for upping the award for sacks, TO's, and such than to make it easier to absorb a bad defensive performance.

I honestly don't care strongly enough to make a big deal either way, but a shitty defensive performance should receive a shitty score..period

The example given is not a shitty DST effort - - it is closer to the norm than the rule in today's NFL. ..... but whatever. ...

 

[TREFF]

we'll, qether the QB comparison is apples to apples or not, the principle behind it is. Still fantasy scoring, still an upper echelon, and a lower echelon, and no one ever proposes scoring to minimize the gap in between. So while I'm rather indifferent on tweaking it as a whole..its gotta be done in such a way that maintains that gap.

And while "elite" defenses vary from year to year, there are a handful that are seemingly always better than average, and always a handful that are seemingly always worse than average.

I'm all for tweaks if they make sense all around. But what I don't want to see is a solid performance with like 10-13 pts allowed not be properly rewarded when compared to a 28-31 pt allowed performance. That's a significant gap, generally one is a win, the other a loss. I don't think its at all unfair that scores reflect those probable outcomes. Would be unfair to the better effort if it there wasn't a significant gap.

Again, if tweaks are wanted, on on board. I just want us to make sure we look at all facets, not just the one before we get too far into it

 

[obxyankeefan]

Can someone go back the past two or three years and check the Defense in D1 and MBBRL. Let's get a general feel on what the difference is between the two point systems.

I am laid up with the flu right now, but should be able to get to it if nobody else can. Tomorrow or Wednesday

 

[Bandit]

This isn't all of them but a good sampling for you. This was last year. I don't have access to D1 before that.


MBBRL

1 Jags Total 264 Average 16.5
2 Ravens Total 225 Average 14.1
3 Rams Total 209 Average 13.1

10 Seahawks Total 183 Average 11.4
11 Panthers Total 182 Average 11.4

16 Titans Total 153 Average 9.6
17 Falcons Total 149 Average 9.3

23 Dolphins Total 130 Average 8.1
24 Buccaneers Total 127 Average 8.1

30 Giants Total 112 Average 7.0
31 Raiders Total 103 Average 6.4
32 Jets Total 103 Average 6.4

D1

1 Jags Total 245 Average 15.31
2 Ravens Total 187 Average 11.69
3 Eagles Total 173 Average 10.81

10 Saints Total 141 Average 8.81
11 Panthers Total 137 Average 8.56

16 Titans Total 105 Average 6.56
17 Falcons Total 102 Average 6.38

23 Dolphins Total 78 Average 4.88
24 Packers Total 74 Average 4.62

30 Colts Total 47 Average 2.94
31 Buccaneers Total 45 Average 2.81
32 Giants Total 44 Average 2.75

 

[TREFF]

This isn't all of them but a good sampling for you. This was last year. I don't have access to D1 before that.


MBBRL

1 Jags Total 264 Average 16.5
2 Ravens Total 225 Average 14.1
3 Rams Total 209 Average 13.1

10 Seahawks Total 183 Average 11.4
11 Panthers Total 182 Average 11.4

16 Titans Total 153 Average 9.6
17 Falcons Total 149 Average 9.3

23 Dolphins Total 130 Average 8.1
24 Buccaneers Total 127 Average 8.1

30 Giants Total 112 Average 7.0
31 Raiders Total 103 Average 6.4
32 Jets Total 103 Average 6.4

D1

1 Jags Total 245 Average 15.31
2 Ravens Total 187 Average 11.69
3 Eagles Total 173 Average 10.81

10 Saints Total 141 Average 8.81
11 Panthers Total 137 Average 8.56

16 Titans Total 105 Average 6.56
17 Falcons Total 102 Average 6.38

23 Dolphins Total 78 Average 4.88
24 Packers Total 74 Average 4.62

30 Colts Total 47 Average 2.94
31 Buccaneers Total 45 Average 2.81
32 Giants Total 44 Average 2.75

Of the two, D1 seems to be a more accurate representation of performance. IMHO

I'll dig into years 1 & 2 of D1 this evening

 

[Bandit]

I guess a lot of this depends on how you view a team defense's scoring compared the rest of your players, these are your points per game closest equivalencies to running back, wide receiver, tight end, and kicker. I'm just going to use the #16 spot since that is right in the middle so it should be a fairly accurate representation to the scoring as whole.

MBBRL

D/ST #16 Titans Averaged 9.6 points per game
RB #15 Christian Mccaffery Averaged 9.3 points per game
WR #8 Michael Thomas Averaged 9.7 points per game
TE #2 Travis Kelce Averaged 9.4 points per game
K #9 Ryan Succup Averaged 9.3 points per game

So in the MBBRL the average team defense is the same as a high end RB2, a low end WR1, a top tight end, and the 9th best kicker. Now that I've seen that I think that's way too much value for a team defense.

D1

D/ST #16 Titans Averaged 6.56 points per game
RB #37 Theo Riddick Averaged 6.32 points per game
WR #36 Paul Richardson Averaged 6.64 points per game
TE #6 Kyle Rudolph Averaged 6.33 points per game
K #20 Ka'imi Fairbairn Averaged 6.5 points per game

And in D1 an average team defense is the same as a high end RB4, a low end WR3, a TE1, and the 20th best kicker. Which in my opinion is way too low.

Seeing those numbers I honestly think that the right answer lies somewhere in the middle. The correction to the points that I made in my original post did not mirror the MBBRL scoring and I think it would put us somewhere in between these two which is exactly where the value of the defense should be IMHO. But after seeing these numbers lets hear from everybody else to see what they think. I've honestly never done this type of comparison before and it definitely puts things in a different perspective.

 

[obxyankeefan]

This isn't all of them but a good sampling for you. This was last year. I don't have access to D1 before that.


MBBRL

1 Jags Total 264 Average 16.5
2 Ravens Total 225 Average 14.1
3 Rams Total 209 Average 13.1

10 Seahawks Total 183 Average 11.4
11 Panthers Total 182 Average 11.4

16 Titans Total 153 Average 9.6
17 Falcons Total 149 Average 9.3

23 Dolphins Total 130 Average 8.1
24 Buccaneers Total 127 Average 8.1

30 Giants Total 112 Average 7.0
31 Raiders Total 103 Average 6.4
32 Jets Total 103 Average 6.4

D1

1 Jags Total 245 Average 15.31
2 Ravens Total 187 Average 11.69
3 Eagles Total 173 Average 10.81

10 Saints Total 141 Average 8.81
11 Panthers Total 137 Average 8.56

16 Titans Total 105 Average 6.56
17 Falcons Total 102 Average 6.38

23 Dolphins Total 78 Average 4.88
24 Packers Total 74 Average 4.62

30 Colts Total 47 Average 2.94
31 Buccaneers Total 45 Average 2.81
32 Giants Total 44 Average 2.75

I guess a lot of this depends on how you view a team defense's scoring compared the rest of your players, these are your points per game closest equivalencies to running back, wide receiver, tight end, and kicker. I'm just going to use the #16 spot since that is right in the middle so it should be a fairly accurate representation to the scoring as whole.

MBBRL

D/ST #16 Titans Averaged 9.6 points per game
RB #15 Christian Mccaffery Averaged 9.3 points per game
WR #8 Michael Thomas Averaged 9.7 points per game
TE #2 Travis Kelce Averaged 9.4 points per game
K #9 Ryan Succup Averaged 9.3 points per game

So in the MBBRL the average team defense is the same as a high end RB2, a low end WR1, a top tight end, and the 9th best kicker. Now that I've seen that I think that's way too much value for a team defense.

D1

D/ST #16 Titans Averaged 6.56 points per game
RB #37 Theo Riddick Averaged 6.32 points per game
WR #36 Paul Richardson Averaged 6.64 points per game
TE #6 Kyle Rudolph Averaged 6.33 points per game
K #20 Ka'imi Fairbairn Averaged 6.5 points per game

And in D1 an average team defense is the same as a high end RB4, a low end WR3, a TE1, and the 20th best kicker. Which in my opinion is way too low.

Seeing those numbers I honestly think that the right answer lies somewhere in the middle. The correction to the points that I made in my original post did not mirror the MBBRL scoring and I think it would put us somewhere in between these two which is exactly where the value of the defense should be IMHO. But after seeing these numbers lets hear from everybody else to see what they think. I've honestly never done this type of comparison before and it definitely puts things in a different perspective.

First off @Bandit Thank you for the time and effort to give us these numbers. Normally if I am to suggest some numbers be looked up I will do it myself. But like I said I was down with the flu and sleep for 27 hours between 3 am monday morning and 1 pm this afternoon. Apparently my body needed a nice nap.


Now getting into the numbers, it looks like about a 3 points difference across the board on the defensive scoring for MBBRL and D1. With D1 being the lower end of the scale. I am open to changing things in the offseason and we did change to a decimal system last year. This one though is a little bit bigger of a change. So right now I would be against the change. I could though get behind a smaller change in the scoring.

 

[TREFF]

I guess a lot of this depends on how you view a team defense's scoring compared the rest of your players, these are your points per game closest equivalencies to running back, wide receiver, tight end, and kicker. I'm just going to use the #16 spot since that is right in the middle so it should be a fairly accurate representation to the scoring as whole.

MBBRL

D/ST #16 Titans Averaged 9.6 points per game
RB #15 Christian Mccaffery Averaged 9.3 points per game
WR #8 Michael Thomas Averaged 9.7 points per game
TE #2 Travis Kelce Averaged 9.4 points per game
K #9 Ryan Succup Averaged 9.3 points per game

So in the MBBRL the average team defense is the same as a high end RB2, a low end WR1, a top tight end, and the 9th best kicker. Now that I've seen that I think that's way too much value for a team defense.

D1

D/ST #16 Titans Averaged 6.56 points per game
RB #37 Theo Riddick Averaged 6.32 points per game
WR #36 Paul Richardson Averaged 6.64 points per game
TE #6 Kyle Rudolph Averaged 6.33 points per game
K #20 Ka'imi Fairbairn Averaged 6.5 points per game

And in D1 an average team defense is the same as a high end RB4, a low end WR3, a TE1, and the 20th best kicker. Which in my opinion is way too low.

Seeing those numbers I honestly think that the right answer lies somewhere in the middle. The correction to the points that I made in my original post did not mirror the MBBRL scoring and I think it would put us somewhere in between these two which is exactly where the value of the defense should be IMHO. But after seeing these numbers lets hear from everybody else to see what they think. I've honestly never done this type of comparison before and it definitely puts things in a different perspective.

Agreed, that is too low when compared to other positions, in a bigger picture. Personally feel the entire position, top to bottom is underscored.

Here are the 2015 & 2016 D1 & 2016 MBBRL Numbers (points not available for MBBRL 2015)-

D1 -2015
1. Denver, 13.06
2. Seattle 11.75
3. Carolina 11.0

10. N.E., 7.88
11. Pitt., 7.31

16. Detriot, 5.25
17. Indy, 5.12

23. Chic., 4.25
24. Dallas, 4.12

30. NYG, 2.31
31. S.F., 1.00
32. N.O., 0.25

D1 -2016
1. Minn. 10.6
2. Denver 9.81
3. ARZ 9.56

10. Balt., 7.31
11. T.B., 6.62

16. JAX., 4.88
17. StL. 4.81

23. G.B., 4.19
24. Chic., 4.12

30 N.O., 1.31
31. S.F., -0.50
32. Clev., -0.88

2016 MBBRL
1. Minn. 12.7
2. K.C., 12.3
3. Denver., 12.2

10. T.B. 10.5
11. Houston, 9.6

16. Dallas, 8.4
17. Atlanta, 8.1

23. Detriot, 7.3
24. Wash, 7.1

30. N.O., 4.8
31. S.F., 4.5
32. Clev., 3.4

 

[TREFF]

Considering that the top QB's, RB's, WR's can all easily top 20..30 for QB's, with exceptional performances routinely getting into the 30's, and the best defense has to be other worldly AND get defensive scores to sniff 15+..the whole thing is out of whack, imho.

I"m behind a tweak that raises the entire bunch, even if it benefits the bottom just a bit more than the top.

 

[TREFF]

@obxyankeefan , wasn't it kick or punt returns for scores that we finally noticed this season that weren't being scored at all? granted that isn't the entire root of the discrepancies, but it ain't helping either..

 

[SteelersPride]

Considering that the top QB's, RB's, WR's can all easily top 20..30 for QB's, with exceptional performances routinely getting into the 30's, and the best defense has to be other worldly AND get defensive scores to sniff 15+..the whole thing is out of whack, imho.

I"m behind a tweak that raises the entire bunch, even if it benefits the bottom just a bit more than the top.

well lets tweak it all

 

[Bandit]

I know that not everybody might not be around right now, but maybe what we should do is just a poll first to see if the majority wants to change the scoring and then if the majority votes yes come up with 3 different options and vote on one of them? Does anybody know if you change the scoring settings in Fantrax if it updates the stats from last year immediately so we could check the scoring to see how much it would change everything?

 

[SteelersPride]

Treff loves polls, but the ppl that are usually active r around here n there

 

[TREFF]

Agreed on the method, no idea on the test experiment.

 

[SteelersPride]

lol

 

[obxyankeefan]

I know that not everybody might not be around right now, but maybe what we should do is just a poll first to see if the majority wants to change the scoring and then if the majority votes yes come up with 3 different options and vote on one of them? Does anybody know if you change the scoring settings in Fantrax if it updates the stats from last year immediately so we could check the scoring to see how much it would change everything?

No it will not. I just went in there and changed sacks from 1 point to 5 points. Chicago's D stayed at 143 points for the year.

 

[obxyankeefan]

@obxyankeefan , wasn't it kick or punt returns for scores that we finally noticed this season that weren't being scored at all? granted that isn't the entire root of the discrepancies, but it ain't helping either..

I don't remember, but Blocked Kicks are not scored in D1. Only Blocked kicks returned for TDs