Defensively Speaking

[zman1527]

1. Carlos Rogers

I think our DB play has hugely improved this year, and he is the reason. No longer are we seeing the other team just march up and down the field with their receivers wide open all the time and our DBs 3 steps behind. And his picks have generally been big plays, at least well before the issue has been decided.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

1. Carlos Rogers

I think our DB play has hugely improved this year, and he is the reason. No longer are we seeing the other team just march up and down the field with their receivers wide open all the time and our DBs 3 steps behind. And his picks have generally been big plays, at least well before the issue has been decided.

He's part of the reason... but 13 sacks from A Smith and 6.5 from J Smith are also part of the reason for that (not to mention all the qb hurries and hits). Pass rush and secondary are highly connected.

I'm not downplaying Rogers he has been Pro Bowl excellent, but as far as the bolded part above, Goldson and Brown and Whitner have also been very good and better than what we had last year. So the entire secondary is improved I wouldn't give all the credit to Rogers.

If Justin was out for a game he has fairly competent backups as well and the drop off from Great to Good - as with Willis to Grant - might not be all that noticeable... for a game or two anyway.

Everyone is strong on this D - we could have 5 or 6 Pro Bowlers - I think this is part of the reason we didn't notice a huge dropoff with Willis out.

 

[MW49ers5]

He's part of the reason... but 13 sacks from A Smith and 6.5 from J Smith are also part of the reason for that (not to mention all the qb hurries and hits). Pass rush and secondary are highly connected.

I'm not downplaying Rogers he has been Pro Bowl excellent, but as far as the bolded part above, Goldson and Brown and Whitner have also been very good and better than what we had last year. So the entire secondary is improved I wouldn't give all the credit to Rogers.

If Justin was out for a game he has fairly competent backups as well and the drop off from Great to Good - as with Willis to Grant - might not be all that noticeable... for a game or two anyway.

Everyone is strong on this D - we could have 5 or 6 Pro Bowlers - I think this is part of the reason we didn't notice a huge dropoff with Willis out.

This!

Well said, Hate

One way I look at Grant is to ask the question would he playing at the same level if he were playing on an average defense and filling in for an average MLB? I think not.

 

[threelittleturds]

Justin Smith has never missed a game for the 49ers... although when he got tossed from the Chargers game, the defense completely fell apart.

It might not be fair to judge with such a small sample of games without Justin Smith. It was 7-0 Chargers when Smith got thrown out, and it was on the next series after the 49ers failed to get a TD on 4th and goal. So, you can blame the swing of momentum on the failed TD too.. but all I know is once Smith got tossed, the end result was 34-7 with a defense that got slapped around from every angle.

Maybe this year it wouldn't be so damaging with RayMac stepping up, but there was nobody after him a year ago.

Anyway.
Justin Smith
Patrick Willis
Carlos Rogers
Aldon Smith
Novarro Bowman
Dashon Goldson
RayMac
the rest

 

[EaseUrStorm]

We have very little behind Justin Smith. A free agent rookie with lots of upside, and an outcast from Seattle. This is area may or may not need to be addressed in the off-season. Smith going down would be a huge hit to this defense. It hurts Aldon, it hurts Willis, it hurts Bowman, and it in turn hurts all the db's. That fall off is not like giving up Lawson for Brooks.

It's also hard to replace d-line because it takes awhile to get production from draft picks in most cases. Look how long it took McDonald before he became the player he is now.

 

[imac_21]

I havent avoided anything here. I have answered the original question. I didnt at first answer the question what we would have looked like on Monday night w/o Justin Smith because no one could possibly give any evidence to support their claim. Its a dumb question that anyone could throw out any answer too.

No, you answered "who would we miss most in a playoff game?"

That was never a question that was posed.

 

[imac_21]

Aldon Smith over Patrick? No way.

Yes way. 13 sacks in 14 games with limited snaps. Obviously you don't completely replace Willis with someone, but it's a lot easier to get quality play from a MLB than it is to get quality pass rush.

And what would you rather have on a team an elite pass rusher, or an elite ILB?

 

[imac_21]

Could we also not make the same argument that Luck was equally as unimportant to our offensive unit on Monday night?

Wouldn't an equally good question be, how much did not having Andrew Luck hurt us on Monday? And would not the answer be, "not one bit"?

For that matter, what would our record be this year if we had only Willis but did not have Luck?

So, tell me again why you would you get rid of a future HOF'er that, according to you we don't need, for an unknown comodity that we clearly don't need in order to be SB contenders and we certainly don't need to get rid of our future HOF'er for in order to improve our performance?

Once again, we just keep coming back to keeping Willis over Luck as I see it.

I think you're lost. Are you posting this in the wrong thread?

Let's try again. Rank the players on the defense in order of importance/value to the unit.

There's nothing in there about Andrew Luck. There's not even anything in there about offense.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Yes way. 13 sacks in 14 games with limited snaps. Obviously you don't completely replace Willis with someone, but it's a lot easier to get quality play from a MLB than it is to get quality pass rush.

And what would you rather have on a team an elite pass rusher, or an elite ILB?

Aldon Smith is a one-trick pony at this point. He barely plays 50% of the snaps. You think that's more improtant than Patrick Willis, who plays every single snap and is dominant every single snap?

Aldon Smith, if he keeps improve in ALL areas, will be more important a year or two from now. But right now he's not more important to this team than Willis. That's ludicrous.

 

[imac_21]

This!

Well said, Hate

One way I look at Grant is to ask the question would he playing at the same level if he were playing on an average defense and filling in for an average MLB? I think not.

Which brings me back to the original question. It's about the defensive UNIT. It's not about playing on a different team.

And we're not talking about replacing them with their backup. If that's the case, it's clearly Justin Smith. There is no way DeMarcus Dobbs can replace Smith as effectively as Grant replaces Willis.

For that matter, it might be Donte Whitner who would be replaced by Madieu Williams.

 

[imac_21]

Aldon Smith is a one-trick pony at this point. He barely plays 50% of the snaps. You think that's more improtant than Patrick Willis, who plays every single snap and is dominant every single snap?

Aldon Smith, if he keeps improve in ALL areas, will be more important a year or two from now. But right now he's not more important to this team than Willis. That's ludicrous.

Clearly I think he is.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Clearly I think he is.

Clearly it's a ludicrous opinion. You're taking a part-time pass rusher over the most complete, most dominant MLB in the game that doesn't miss a single snap?

You might have an argument two years from now. Not today though.

 

[NinerSickness]

I think one gets bogged down in semantics to determine which player is "more important" to a defense, but Aldon Smith is the more valuable commodity because what he does is much harder to find.

What if the Niners had Demarcus Ware? Ware wouldn't just be the more valuable commodity he'd be the more valuable commodity by a pretty large margin.

If the Niners had an all pro' safety on the roster Willis would be the more valuable commodity based solely on gthe importance of the position he plays. It's the same thing with Aldon.

 

[imac_21]

Clearly it's a ludicrous opinion. You're taking a part-time pass rusher over the most complete, most dominant MLB in the game that doesn't miss a single snap?

You might have an argument two years from now. Not today though.

Well, a couple things.

First, he's more valuable right now. Pressure on the QB is key. That's why we (the regulars on this and ESPN in the past) have spent the last 6+ years begging the front office to draft a pass rusher. Now we have a great one.

Second, this thread is about who is most valuable to the defensive unit going forward. Discounting age, since Willis is still quite young, Aldon will improve and take on a bigger role.

Where do you project Smith to be as a player in 2013?

 

[shouldakepowens]

I think you go J. Smith and Willis at 1a and 1b. Grant is a more than capable back up but you can see a difference in the coverage when Grant came in. And in the Pittsburgh game there were more big runs up the middle. I think Bowman didn't look so great in that game, missing a few tackles and I think it showed how valuable Willis is. Bowman had to cover more ground with Grant in there and he wasn't making all of the plays he normally would. And the pass rush has gone quiet for stretches this year. I would say this

1. Willis
2. J. Smith
3. A. Smith- I put him over Rogers cause if he's on then he is making anybody in the secondary that much better. If he is ON I would put him 2.
4. Rogers
5. McDonald

And shouldakepowens... I think Harrison is pretty valuable to their D. He is always making plays and making other teams guys think about going into the area he is at. He would also be pretty valuable to our offense. He's always good for a couple 15 yard penalties in a game.

I just thought it was interesting that they were 4-1 without him this year not sure the teams they played. Or even the numbers the d gave up.

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

No, you answered "who would we miss most in a playoff game?"

That was never a question that was posed.

Wow getting picky there. They're pretty much interchangeable except I tried to be more specific and relate it to our season to show who would be missed the most, which obviously would mean they are the most important to our defensive unit. The rankings obviously wouldn't change. Would you change your rankings and if so, I'd be very curious why.

 

[imac_21]

Wow getting picky there. They're pretty much interchangeable except I tried to be more specific and relate it to our season to show who would be missed the most, which obviously would mean they are the most important to our defensive unit. The rankings obviously wouldn't change. Would you change your rankings and if so, I'd be very curious why.

No, they aren't even a little interchangeable.

Apply it to the offense. Who would we miss most in a playoff game? Probably Adam Snyder since that would mean Rachal is playing.

Possibly Crabtree?

You could make a case for Alex Smith.

Would you like to make a case that going forward with the team, Adam Snyder is the most valuable member of the offense?

Of course not, because if you're removing a player from the roster for the long term, you can replace him through the draft or FA.

They're very different questions. One of which you are still avoiding.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Well, a couple things.

First, he's more valuable right now. Pressure on the QB is key. That's why we (the regulars on this and ESPN in the past) have spent the last 6+ years begging the front office to draft a pass rusher. Now we have a great one.

Second, this thread is about who is most valuable to the defensive unit going forward. Discounting age, since Willis is still quite young, Aldon will improve and take on a bigger role.

Where do you project Smith to be as a player in 2013?

If it's going forward I might agree with you. Two or three years down the road he'll probably be more valuable than Willis if he continues to develop. Right now, when he's sitting on the bench half the time, he's not more valuable than Willis, despite his 13 sacks.

 

[bvanthielriceyoung]

No, they aren't even a little interchangeable.

Apply it to the offense. Who would we miss most in a playoff game? Probably Adam Snyder since that would mean Rachal is playing.

Possibly Crabtree?

You could make a case for Alex Smith.

Would you like to make a case that going forward with the team, Adam Snyder is the most valuable member of the offense?

Of course not, because if you're removing a player from the roster for the long term, you can replace him through the draft or FA.

They're very different questions. One of which you are still avoiding.

So the question was "Rank the players on the Niners defense in terms of importance to the unit."

Talk about vague. Now your talking about the future and going foward and who to replace? The question never says anything bout future seasons, it says who is the most important to the unit, which could be taken presently.

If were talking who is the most important player to the 9ers defense in the future seasons, then its probably Aldon Smith but this was not how the question was worded.

 

[Epic Voidfield]

So the question was "Rank the players on the Niners defense in terms of importance to the unit."

Talk about vague. Now your talking about the future and going foward and who to replace? The question never says anything bout future seasons, it says who is the most important to the unit, which could be taken presently.

If were talking who is the most important player to the 9ers defense in the future seasons, then its probably Aldon Smith but this was not how the question was worded.

The original post was a rhetoric. Do you now get it? People will often outweigh "leadership" or "heart of the team" for impact players that are essential to the unit. Patrick Willis, while awesome, is relatively easier to replace than, say, an Aldon Smith that immediately impacts the unit's success and scheme (back drop coverage with little blitzing therefore requiring an elite pass rusher).