Darnell Dockett signs with 49ers

[Scooby-Doo]

You said my statement about the amount of dead cap $ was not only incorrect, but not even close.
That should mean that you know how much those hits would be, yet refuse to answer. Hey, no problem.

Ok. I'll play your little fantasy game.

If Fitz and Palmer both don't make the team and they are cut this year even though the team just restructured both their contracts , here is the scenario.

If cut before June 1st.
Palmer $20,500,000 in dead money $6,000,000 in cap savings so the net, dead cap hit would be $14,500,000.
Fitz $36,400,000 in dead money $25,550,000 in cap savings so the net, dead cap hit would be $10,850,000.
The total net, dead cap hit or dead money between Palmer and Fitz would be $25,350,000.

If cut after June 1st.
Palmer $14,500,000 in dead money
Fitz $10,850,000 in dead money
The total cap hit or dead money between Palmer and Fitz would be $25,350,000.

Now lets look at your original post:

Az has $56,900,000 in dead cap committed to Palmer and Fitz going into the 2015 season. You like those moves?

The total amount of dead cap committed to Palmer and Fitz is $25,350,000 no matter what way you slice it. Again, your statement about the amount of dead cap $ was not only incorrect, but not even close.

 

[tducey]

Like the move for the 49ers.

 

[Uhsplit]

Ok. I'll play your little fantasy game.

If Fitz and Palmer both don't make the team and they are cut this year even though the team just restructured both their contracts , here is the scenario.

If cut before June 1st.
Palmer $20,500,000 in dead money $6,000,000 in cap savings so the net, dead cap hit would be $14,500,000.
Fitz $36,400,000 in dead money $25,550,000 in cap savings so the net, dead cap hit would be $10,850,000.
The total net, dead cap hit or dead money between Palmer and Fitz would be $25,350,000.

If cut after June 1st.
Palmer $14,500,000 in dead money
Fitz $10,850,000 in dead money
The total cap hit or dead money between Palmer and Fitz would be $25,350,000.

Now lets look at your original post:



The total amount of dead cap committed to Palmer and Fitz is $25,350,000 no matter what way you slice it. Again, your statement about the amount of dead cap $ was not only incorrect, but not even close.

Figuring out a teams cap is quite confusing and I am still learning as I go. I have no problem admitting a mistake, but in going off of Spotrac and OTC both state $56.9M in dead cap $ for the 2015 season.
Looking at Fitz, I think he still had $14.4M owed from his 2014 contract. The restructure guaranteed him $22M equaling the $36.4 showing.
I agree that releasing the player removes any salary or roster type dollars, but I believe the team is still on the hook for guaranteed money. If true, that results in dead cap dollars which inhibit a teams cap room.
In summary, just for this hypothetical you say if Fitz gets cut, the team does not owe him the balance of the guarantee?
Looking at Dockett, he had $15M guaranteed from his earlier contract spread out over 5 years. He completed 4 of those years leaving $3M in dead cap which has been rolled over into dead cap $ against the 2015 cap.
I'm confused, which is not difficult to achieve.

And yes, this is all make believe but weird things do happen.

 

[Uhsplit]

You are talking about a scenario that would never happen.

That dead money only comes into play if Arizona decides between now and the beginning of the year that they want to waive both player BASED ON PERFORMANCE. If either suffers an injury, they wouldn't cut them because then other parts of the contract become guaranteed.

You think that guaranteed money is more important than it actually is. It's important to the player and the agent more than the team in these situations. It is only when a team might realistically part with players based on ability that it actually becomes important to the team. And that is not something that Arizona has to worry about this year with either player because there is no scenario where they look at their roster and think let's cut Fitz or Palmer because we have better and cheaper options available.

I do not disagree with your post.
I asked Scooby if he thought having $56.9 in guaranteed dollars to 2 older plays was a wise business move. Agreed, no rational GM would resign/restructure a guy to cut him.
What if an injury occurs that forces the team to go in another direction? Of course, most big contracts have injury insurance if this happens, but would the team be on the hook (as far as the cap is concerned) of any balances?
I do not know, just asking.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Figuring out a teams cap is quite confusing and I am still learning as I go. I have no problem admitting a mistake, but in going off of Spotrac and OTC both state $56.9M in dead cap $ for the 2015 season.
Looking at Fitz, I think he still had $14.4M owed from his 2014 contract. The restructure guaranteed him $22M equaling the $36.4 showing.
I agree that releasing the player removes any salary or roster type dollars, but I believe the team is still on the hook for guaranteed money. If true, that results in dead cap dollars which inhibit a teams cap room.
In summary, just for this hypothetical you say if Fitz gets cut, the team does not owe him the balance of the guarantee?
Looking at Dockett, he had $15M guaranteed from his earlier contract spread out over 5 years. He completed 4 of those years leaving $3M in dead cap which has been rolled over into dead cap $ against the 2015 cap.
I'm confused, which is not difficult to achieve.

And yes, this is all make believe but weird things do happen.

No biggie, It's confusing to everyone including me. There is a difference between what the team owes a player and what the cap implication will be. I could care less what the team owes Fitz, Palmer or any other player for that matter. The only way it effects me, as a fan, is the cap hit and the teams ability to sign players.

I admit the Cards cap situation is not the best. They do have a lot of money tied up in deferred salaries which does effect the cap in future years, but they are trying to win with the pieces they have now so I get it.

 

[Uhsplit]

No biggie, It's confusing to everyone including me. There is a difference between what the team owes a player and what the cap implication will be. I could care less what the team owes Fitz, Palmer or any other player for that matter. The only way it effects me, as a fan, is the cap hit and the teams ability to sign players.

I admit the Cards cap situation is not the best. They do have a lot of money tied up in deferred salaries which does effect the cap in future years, but they are trying to win with the pieces they have now so I get it.

Fair enough sir.

 

[Davis_Mike]

Let me drop a little cap knowledge here.

Arguing over "dead cap money" for players who are currently on team & will be for the foreseeable future is ridiculous. Dead money isn't as big a deal as some would like you to believe. Optional roster bonus are included in the dead money figure. The option money isn't technically dead money because a team can decline the option & release the player.

Dead money only becomes an issue after a player is cut. Besides, the cap can be easily manipulated so that any "real" dead money can be spread out over a couple years.

Again, making an issue out of dead money for players who will be on the roster for multiple seasons yet to come, is fruitless.

Regarding Campbell, he is one of the best 3-4 DE in the NFL. He is well worth the money that he is getting paid. His stats are very similar to that of Justin Smith & is in the prime of his career. If he had pass rushers around him like most 3-4 DE do, his stats would be even better.

 

[Uhsplit]

Let me drop a little cap knowledge here.

Arguing over "dead cap money" for players who are currently on team & will be for the foreseeable future is ridiculous. Dead money isn't as big a deal as some would like you to believe. Optional roster bonus are included in the dead money figure. The option money isn't technically dead money because a team can decline the option & release the player.

Dead money only becomes an issue after a player is cut. Besides, the cap can be easily manipulated so that any "real" dead money can be spread out over a couple years.

Again, making an issue out of dead money for players who will be on the roster for multiple seasons yet to come, is fruitless.

Regarding Campbell, he is one of the best 3-4 DE in the NFL. He is well worth the money that he is getting paid. His stats are very similar to that of Justin Smith & is in the prime of his career. If he had pass rushers around him like most 3-4 DE do, his stats would be even better.

Seattle is stuck for 2015 with $7.2M dead cap hit from the Percy Harvin fiasco. That is a real big deal because that is exactly how much less cap space we have this year regarding that trade.
My issue entirely was having that much potential dead cap space for players that are the ages of Fitz and Palmer. Your point is expecting both playing multiple seasons yet to come. Maybe for Fitz, but I'm not so sure Palmer will last for multiple seasons. That is a high risk considering his history.
I have a question for you. How much is the current dead cap hit for both of the players we are talking about? There has been some disagreement about that. I know you are pretty sharp on the cap as I have read your posts about it before.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

 

[Davis_Mike]

Seattle is stuck for 2015 with $7.2M dead cap hit from the Percy Harvin fiasco. That is a real big deal because that is exactly how much less cap space we have this year regarding that trade.
My issue entirely was having that much potential dead cap space for players that are the ages of Fitz and Palmer. Your point is expecting both playing multiple seasons yet to come. Maybe for Fitz, but I'm not so sure Palmer will last for multiple seasons. That is a high risk considering his history.
I have a question for you. How much is the current dead cap hit for both of the players we are talking about? There has been some disagreement about that. I know you are pretty sharp on the cap as I have read your posts about it before.

Dead money only comes back to bite if you cut or trade a player with multiple years of dead money. Most elite players & above average QB(s) with long term contracts, have multiple years of dead money that is just how the cap game is played. Wilson's will likely be in the same boat about year 3 of his new contract.

Fitz will be 32 in August & likely could play another 3-4 seasons. He will retire as a Cardinal. His current contract is only for 2 years & it's fully guaranteed. That is why there is so much dead money attributed to him. & that's why I said that the dead money number is meaningless at this point. After 2016, there is only $9.7 mil in dead money spread out over 2017 & 18. He will likely sign his final contract for a lower amount than he is currently being paid, that will cover year 17 & 18.

Palmer just signed a new 3 year deal & expect he will play out that contract. An ACL only injury to a non-mobile QB is not that big of a deal once they are healed. He technically has $20 mil in dead money on the books, but that includes this season. All 3 years of the deal included roster bonuses which could be avoided if he were to be cut. They converted 2015's roster bonus into a restructure bonus and spread the money over the length of the contract. After 2015, there is only $13 mil in dead money remaining, with 2 years + a voidable year left on his contract.

And if at any point they decide to move on from either player & they still have dead money on the books, the team can designate the cut a post June 1st cut & spread the remaining dead money over a couple of seasons.

The reason the Seahawks took such a big cap hit for Harvin is because they traded him & all the signing bonus dead money came due.

The cap can easily be manipulated. The Cardinals began the offseason 15+ mil over the cap & are currently $21 mil under the cap. The key is too not have too many players constantly restructuring their contracts to free up money. When you do that, you end up like Steelers, Cowboys, & Saints, in cap hell for years.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Dead money only comes back to bite if you cut or trade a player with multiple years of dead money. Most elite players & above average QB(s) with long term contracts, have multiple years of dead money that is just how the cap game is played. Wilson's will likely be in the same boat about year 3 of his new contract.

Fitz will be 32 in August & likely could play another 3-4 seasons. He will retire as a Cardinal. His current contract is only for 2 years & it's fully guaranteed. That is why there is so much dead money attributed to him. & that's why I said that the dead money number is meaningless at this point. After 2016, there is only $9.7 mil in dead money spread out over 2017 & 18. He will likely sign his final contract for a lower amount than he is currently being paid, that will cover year 17 & 18.

Palmer just signed a new 3 year deal & expect he will play out that contract. An ACL only injury to a non-mobile QB is not that big of a deal once they are healed. He technically has $20 mil in dead money on the books, but that includes this season. All 3 years of the deal included roster bonuses which could be avoided if he were to be cut. They converted 2015's roster bonus into a restructure bonus and spread the money over the length of the contract. After 2015, there is only $13 mil in dead money remaining, with 2 years + a voidable year left on his contract.

And if at any point they decide to move on from either player & they still have dead money on the books, the team can designate the cut a post June 1st cut & spread the remaining dead money over a couple of seasons.

The reason the Seahawks took such a big cap hit for Harvin is because they traded him & all the signing bonus dead money came due.

The cap can easily be manipulated. The Cardinals began the offseason 15+ mil over the cap & are currently $21 mil under the cap. The key is too not have too many players constantly restructuring their contracts to free up money. When you do that, you end up like Steelers, Cowboys, & Saints, in cap hell for years.

That equates to the 23 mil between the two of them I quoted earlier. I think I may have passed capology 101 which is quite the feat for me.

However what Davis is saying is, that 23 mil may not even be that much considering the roster bonuses, etc. which I did not know. I'll delve into advanced capology next time.