Current, former players shocked Lamar is not getting more interest

[Stakesarehigh]

How can I "homer" for a player on a team I don't like? I can clearly see his team is unwilling to pay him the going rate, but is holding him hostage essentially. He's a 26 year old QB with one MVP already under his belt. I hope the Colts rescue him from this mess.

Like it or not, it is your Browns that started this mess with offering a completely guaranteed contract to a sex offender to essentially beg him to consider Cleveland. Of course Lamar thinks he deserves more, because he does.

Both the Ravens and Lamar own this issue. But even had the Ravens negotiated a deal with Lamar prior to Watson his behavior pretty much indicates he would've held out for more.

He's not being held hostage. If his demands were reasonable he'd have a new team or a deal.

And yes you're absolutely homering for Ole one win Lamar when you compare his age to Pat Mahomes. He will never be Pat Mahomes.

 

[shopson67]

Both the Ravens and Lamar own this issue. But even had the Ravens negotiated a deal with Lamar prior to Watson his behavior pretty much indicates he would've held out for more.

He's not being held hostage. If his demands were reasonable he'd have a new team or a deal.

And yes you're absolutely homering for Ole one win Lamar when you compare his age to Pat Mahomes. He will never be Pat Mahomes.

I don't think you understand what homering means.

His age was compared to Mahomes in that they are both mobile QBs and Mahomes got a 10 year extension. Expecting 5 years plus for Lamar (if the team actually wants him) is reasonable. If they don't, trade him.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I don't think you understand what homering means.

His age was compared to Mahomes in that they are both mobile QBs and Mahomes got a 10 year extension. Expecting 5 years plus for Lamar (if the team actually wants him) is reasonable. If they don't, trade him.

They can trade him right now. No one wants to pick up the bill

Come on man lol

Mahomes is light years better than Lamar as a passer and it isn't even close. Durability is much less of a concern

 

[shopson67]

They can trade him right now. No one wants to pick up the bill

Come on man lol

Mahomes is light years better than Lamar as a passer and it isn't even close. Durability is much less of a concern

Again, Lamar's injuries were the result of pass rush, not running the ball. Every QB is susceptible to those. Much like Mahomes, Lamar knows enough to evade hits when running the ball.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Again, Lamar's injuries were the result of pass rush, not running the ball. Every QB is susceptible to those. Much like Mahomes, Lamar knows enough to evade hits when running the ball.

The reason injuries are taken into consideration moreso with Lamar is because he isn't in the stratosphere of Mahomes as a passer. Mahomes gets a 10 year deal because he is absolutely the best passer in the league. Lamar gets 5 years max because his legs open up his questionable downfield passing for him.

Thats the difference and why comparing the 2 is laughable.

 

[shopson67]

The reason injuries are taken into consideration moreso with Lamar is because he isn't in the stratosphere of Mahomes as a passer. Mahomes gets a 10 year deal because he is absolutely the best passer in the league. Lamar gets 5 years max because his legs open up his questionable downfield passing for him.

Thats the difference and why comparing the 2 is laughable.

I'm not suggesting that Lamar gets a 10 year extension like Mahomes, merely a 5-6 year extension. I have not made a comparison beyond age and being among the top QBs in the league (and avoiding hits when running). You could however argue that they are similar in importance to their teams, in that much of their team's success on offense is on their shoulders (and not just because they are the starting QBs).

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I'm not suggesting that Lamar gets a 10 year extension like Mahomes, merely a 5-6 year extension. I have not made a comparison beyond age and being among the top QBs in the league (and avoiding hits when running). You could however argue that they are similar in importance to their teams, in that much of their team's success on offense is on their shoulders (and not just because they are the starting QBs).

And Lamar would be a Raven today with anything in the stratosphere of reasonable

An agent would've helped here. He could have given Lamar the kind of reality check he needed.

Instead he is going to listen to the one offs like RG3 instead of what the league is telling him loud and clear.

 

[shopson67]

And Lamar would be a Raven today with anything in the stratosphere of reasonable

An agent would've helped here. He could have given Lamar the kind of reality check he needed.

Instead he is going to listen to the one offs like RG3 instead of what the league is telling him loud and clear.

What reality check is needed? Every other new QB contract at a similar level has set a new high, so should his.

Comparing him to RG3 is ridiculous.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

What reality check is needed? Every other new QB contract at a similar level has set a new high, so should his.

Comparing him to RG3 is ridiculous.

Why should his

And I wasn't comparing him to RG3 I was saying he's going to listen to RG3s chirping.

But why should Lamar be the highest paid player in the league based on the last 2 seasons

 

[Cincyfan78]

How can I "homer" for a player on a team I don't like? I can clearly see his team is unwilling to pay him the going rate, but is holding him hostage essentially. He's a 26 year old QB with one MVP already under his belt. I hope the Colts rescue him from this mess.

Like it or not, it is your Browns that started this mess with offering a completely guaranteed contract to a sex offender to essentially beg him to consider Cleveland. Of course Lamar thinks he deserves more, because he does.

Your last section is the faulty in your thinking. A - Just because 1 team makes a really bad decision does not mean other teams have to follow. That's just bad business. B - he's also not worth it, and the market is telling him that. He's overvalued his skillset for the current market. He's had 1 elite season in the NFL. One. Uno. Yet he demands to be the highest paid? Maybe after one good year at work in 5 years, in which that one good year was 3 years ago, you can also go in and demand to be the highest paid worker, or hell, CEO of your company? Makes total sense....

The guy hasn't even thrown for more than 4K yards, and only topped 3K once (barely)...in his second season. He's not stayed healthy enough to show if he's really progressed as a passer, and the use of his running is the largest key to his ability at QB. It's 100% fair for teams to look at him and not want to get into a long-term, Mega-deal with him.

He has overvalued his skillset in the current market.

 

[shopson67]

Your last section is the faulty in your thinking. A - Just because 1 team makes a really bad decision does not mean other teams have to follow. That's just bad business. B - he's also not worth it, and the market is telling him that. He's overvalued his skillset for the current market. He's had 1 elite season in the NFL. One. Uno. Yet he demands to be the highest paid? Maybe after one good year at work in 5 years, in which that one good year was 3 years ago, you can also go in and demand to be the highest paid worker, or hell, CEO of your company? Makes total sense....

The guy hasn't even thrown for more than 4K yards, and only topped 3K once (barely)...in his second season. He's not stayed healthy enough to show if he's really progressed as a passer, and the use of his running is the largest key to his ability at QB. It's 100% fair for teams to look at him and not want to get into a long-term, Mega-deal with him.

He has overvalued his skillset in the current market.

Take a look at the recent history of QB extensions and show me where an upper echelon talent at QB (recent MVP) in his prime has not been given the top QB contract when his turn came for his extension. His stats the past few years are down due to his 2 in the pocket injuries, as well as injuries RBs each year and the dwindling talent (and injuries) within his target group. He's a combined 45-16 as the starting QB with the Ravens, second to Mahomes in winning percentage among active QBs (with a reasonable amount of starts).

This is clearly a reaction by NFL owners against contract guarantees, call it collusion if you want.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Take a look at the recent history of QB extensions and show me where an upper echelon talent at QB (recent MVP) in his prime has not been given the top QB contract when his turn came for his extension. His stats the past few years are down due to his 2 in the pocket injuries, as well as injuries RBs each year and the dwindling talent (and injuries) within his target group. He's a combined 45-16 as the starting QB with the Ravens, second to Mahomes in winning percentage among active QBs (with a reasonable amount of starts).

This is clearly a reaction by NFL owners against contract guarantees, call it collusion if you want.

You keep using "in the pocket" injuries as if that makes it better. The injuries are just a part of the issue. Pocket or not. The big thing is, because Jackson uses his legs those injuries, again pocket or not, take away from what makes him good at his position...his legs. So, all leg injuries are amplified, no matter how they occur, to Jackson because his skill-set is specifically designed around his ability to run.

Go back to where a QB had 1 really good year, a good (not great) year, and 2 years where he didn't even finish the season, and wasn't really on pace to do much better than his baseline. Mayfield? Not sure there are too many others, because those guys don't get mega contracts.

Then go back and find a player who uses his legs more than his arm to set up his ability to pass more than Lamar. Vick? Hurts may be in the same boat in a year, or two, but honestly - he's shown a lot more pocket ability than Jackson has. He's at least thrown for 3K yards in back to back seasons, shown improvement in the passing game increasing his yards, and would likely eclipse 4K this season, IMO. So, even then...Lamar is a bit of a unicorn - but that doesn't always mean good things.

Lamar right now is 1 of 1. Trying to say Mahomes got this, or Allen got that, or Burrow will get this is faulty because Lamar is not the same as those QB's. Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow - all routinely over 4K yards, and pushing towards 5K (with Mahomes/Herbert actually eclipsing). None of them HAVE to run. They can run, and will do so at times that are advantageous, but guys you are signing up because they can sling the ball from the pocket every Sunday. Lamar is not built to play QB like that.

The thing that is setting Lamar apart at the QB position is also keeping him from getting paid in the same manner. The long-term prognosis does not set well with teams...if they did, Baltimore would have already locked him up. Once his legs go, and as we are all well away legs go sooner than about any other body part in the NFL, he'll be a middling QB because he lacks the ability to command the game at a top level QB tier like others.

You said this wasn't about guaranteed money...so, now that your argument is falling a part, you are back to this? Frankly - I don't care...if teams don't want to guarantee full contracts, that's on them. Players can ask, and maybe a team will get desperate enough to finally cave (Cleveland). But, the issue is so much more here than just a team, or teams, unwilling to pay him a fully guaranteed, or mostly guaranteed contract - it's their fear that his legs won't hold up to see the back end of those years, and his passing skill-set is still so fully engrained into his running that should his legs go sooner than later, a team is stuck with a MASSIVE anchor around its next for years.

Quite honestly - this is just a business decision. Again, Lamar has overvalued his market. While a really good QB, he can't compare to the other top QB's because his skill set is so vastly different, and historically, doesn't hold up well over time.

 

[shopson67]

You keep using "in the pocket" injuries as if that makes it better. The injuries are just a part of the issue. Pocket or not. The big thing is, because Jackson uses his legs those injuries, again pocket or not, take away from what makes him good at his position...his legs. So, all leg injuries are amplified, no matter how they occur, to Jackson because his skill-set is specifically designed around his ability to run.

Go back to where a QB had 1 really good year, a good (not great) year, and 2 years where he didn't even finish the season, and wasn't really on pace to do much better than his baseline. Mayfield? Not sure there are too many others, because those guys don't get mega contracts.

Then go back and find a player who uses his legs more than his arm to set up his ability to pass more than Lamar. Vick? Hurts may be in the same boat in a year, or two, but honestly - he's shown a lot more pocket ability than Jackson has. He's at least thrown for 3K yards in back to back seasons, shown improvement in the passing game increasing his yards, and would likely eclipse 4K this season, IMO. So, even then...Lamar is a bit of a unicorn - but that doesn't always mean good things.

Lamar right now is 1 of 1. Trying to say Mahomes got this, or Allen got that, or Burrow will get this is faulty because Lamar is not the same as those QB's. Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow - all routinely over 4K yards, and pushing towards 5K (with Mahomes/Herbert actually eclipsing). None of them HAVE to run. They can run, and will do so at times that are advantageous, but guys you are signing up because they can sling the ball from the pocket every Sunday. Lamar is not built to play QB like that.

The thing that is setting Lamar apart at the QB position is also keeping him from getting paid in the same manner. The long-term prognosis does not set well with teams...if they did, Baltimore would have already locked him up. Once his legs go, and as we are all well away legs go sooner than about any other body part in the NFL, he'll be a middling QB because he lacks the ability to command the game at a top level QB tier like others.

You said this wasn't about guaranteed money...so, now that your argument is falling a part, you are back to this? Frankly - I don't care...if teams don't want to guarantee full contracts, that's on them. Players can ask, and maybe a team will get desperate enough to finally cave (Cleveland). But, the issue is so much more here than just a team, or teams, unwilling to pay him a fully guaranteed, or mostly guaranteed contract - it's their fear that his legs won't hold up to see the back end of those years, and his passing skill-set is still so fully engrained into his running that should his legs go sooner than later, a team is stuck with a MASSIVE anchor around its next for years.

Quite honestly - this is just a business decision. Again, Lamar has overvalued his market. While a really good QB, he can't compare to the other top QB's because his skill set is so vastly different, and historically, doesn't hold up well over time.

Your entire argument is invalidated by comparing Lamar to Mayfield. C'mon now...

You can throw passing numbers around if you want, but the point of the matter is Lamar wins more than anyone not named Mahomes thus far.

Want to compare him to Hurts? Lamar edges him out in yards/att, completion percentage and QBR. They are close enough to be a wash as passers, albeit Lamar with the much weaker passing game around him to work with. He doesn't get as many attempts in the Ravens offense and he doesn't have a WR remotely close to Brown or Smith (Andrews does have an edge on Goedert). Bateman/Duvernay/Agholor lol?

Rodgers' $50M per is the baseline for extensions going forward for the QBs coming due (Lamar, Burrow, Herbert, Hurts). Each successive one will leap frog the previous high. The ridiculous guaranteed money for Watson is throwing the market out of whack, but that isn't Jackson's fault.

 

[eaglesnut]

You keep using "in the pocket" injuries as if that makes it better. The injuries are just a part of the issue. Pocket or not. The big thing is, because Jackson uses his legs those injuries, again pocket or not, take away from what makes him good at his position...his legs. So, all leg injuries are amplified, no matter how they occur, to Jackson because his skill-set is specifically designed around his ability to run.

Go back to where a QB had 1 really good year, a good (not great) year, and 2 years where he didn't even finish the season, and wasn't really on pace to do much better than his baseline. Mayfield? Not sure there are too many others, because those guys don't get mega contracts.

Then go back and find a player who uses his legs more than his arm to set up his ability to pass more than Lamar. Vick? Hurts may be in the same boat in a year, or two, but honestly - he's shown a lot more pocket ability than Jackson has. He's at least thrown for 3K yards in back to back seasons, shown improvement in the passing game increasing his yards, and would likely eclipse 4K this season, IMO. So, even then...Lamar is a bit of a unicorn - but that doesn't always mean good things.

Lamar right now is 1 of 1. Trying to say Mahomes got this, or Allen got that, or Burrow will get this is faulty because Lamar is not the same as those QB's. Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow - all routinely over 4K yards, and pushing towards 5K (with Mahomes/Herbert actually eclipsing). None of them HAVE to run. They can run, and will do so at times that are advantageous, but guys you are signing up because they can sling the ball from the pocket every Sunday. Lamar is not built to play QB like that.

The thing that is setting Lamar apart at the QB position is also keeping him from getting paid in the same manner. The long-term prognosis does not set well with teams...if they did, Baltimore would have already locked him up. Once his legs go, and as we are all well away legs go sooner than about any other body part in the NFL, he'll be a middling QB because he lacks the ability to command the game at a top level QB tier like others.

You said this wasn't about guaranteed money...so, now that your argument is falling a part, you are back to this? Frankly - I don't care...if teams don't want to guarantee full contracts, that's on them. Players can ask, and maybe a team will get desperate enough to finally cave (Cleveland). But, the issue is so much more here than just a team, or teams, unwilling to pay him a fully guaranteed, or mostly guaranteed contract - it's their fear that his legs won't hold up to see the back end of those years, and his passing skill-set is still so fully engrained into his running that should his legs go sooner than later, a team is stuck with a MASSIVE anchor around its next for years.

Quite honestly - this is just a business decision. Again, Lamar has overvalued his market. While a really good QB, he can't compare to the other top QB's because his skill set is so vastly different, and historically, doesn't hold up well over time.

You're the 8th or 9th person now to explain this to shopson. He doesn't have a coherent logical position on the topic, but he's going to keep it.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Your entire argument is invalidated by comparing Lamar to Mayfield. C'mon now...

You can throw passing numbers around if you want, but the point of the matter is Lamar wins more than anyone not named Mahomes thus far.

Want to compare him to Hurts? Lamar edges him out in yards/att, completion percentage and QBR. They are close enough to be a wash as passers, albeit Lamar with the much weaker passing game around him to work with. He doesn't get as many attempts in the Ravens offense and he doesn't have a WR remotely close to Brown or Smith (Andrews does have an edge on Goedert). Bateman/Duvernay/Agholor lol?

Rodgers' $50M per is the baseline for extensions going forward for the QBs coming due (Lamar, Burrow, Herbert, Hurts). Each successive one will leap frog the previous high. The ridiculous guaranteed money for Watson is throwing the market out of whack, but that isn't Jackson's fault.

To be fair if we are banking our evals on production from 2020 then Baker should be getting paid a whole lot more.


And I'm not sure what you mean with this leapfrog business

Kyler Murray got less than Watson. I didn't see him asking for more. (He isn't worth what he got)

 

[Cincyfan78]

Your entire argument is invalidated by comparing Lamar to Mayfield. C'mon now...

You can throw passing numbers around if you want, but the point of the matter is Lamar wins more than anyone not named Mahomes thus far.

Want to compare him to Hurts? Lamar edges him out in yards/att, completion percentage and QBR. They are close enough to be a wash as passers, albeit Lamar with the much weaker passing game around him to work with. He doesn't get as many attempts in the Ravens offense and he doesn't have a WR remotely close to Brown or Smith (Andrews does have an edge on Goedert). Bateman/Duvernay/Agholor lol?

Rodgers' $50M per is the baseline for extensions going forward for the QBs coming due (Lamar, Burrow, Herbert, Hurts). Each successive one will leap frog the previous high. The ridiculous guaranteed money for Watson is throwing the market out of whack, but that isn't Jackson's fault.

You said to compare contracts...You said "Who was the last QB to have 1 really good year, and follow it up with mediocre years, and injury years". I remarked: Maybe Mayfield? Never said they played the same.

Hurts has started 2 years...Lamar 5. Hurts' trajectory is much better than Lamar's.

Lamar is not Rodgers. Lamar is not Mahomes. Lamar is Lamar and if you are going to pay a a QB Rodgers rate, or Mahomes, or Allen - then it would make sense that they all have some kind of equality about them that makes them similar. Lamar does not. He doesn't throw the ball like Rodgers, or Mahomes, or Allen, or Burrow, or Herbert, or Watson, or Cousins, or Hurts, or Smith, or Lawrence or even Carr...if we are looking at passing ability, which is what long-term QB contracts are usually based on .... he's more of a Andy Dalton, Mac Jones, Daniel Jones, or even Mills....at least with passing productivity.

Now, what puts Lamar above all of those lower tier QB's is his legs...which is something you seemingly want to ignore. His legs, not this arm, is what makes him special. The issue is, historically speaking, legs don't hold up well. Lamar is going into year 6, which means, likely, teams can expect to start to see a decline in his athletic ability with his leg usage about this year, but certainly in year 7 and 8. Which means, once his ability to use his legs starts to falter, he's not a Rodgers, Mahomes, Burrow category QB, he's a Mills, Dalton, Jones tier QB - and no team wants to be stuck paying Rodgers/Mahomes/Allen/Burrow money for Andy Dalton over the next 4-5 years.

 

[shopson67]

To be fair if we are banking our evals on production from 2020 then Baker should be getting paid a whole lot more.


And I'm not sure what you mean with this leapfrog business

Kyler Murray got less than Watson. I didn't see him asking for more. (He isn't worth what he got)

Kyler Murray is at least a rung below and doesn't win, but he did get 500K more than Watson. 5 years/$230.5M vs 5 years/$230M.

 

[shopson67]

You said to compare contracts...You said "Who was the last QB to have 1 really good year, and follow it up with mediocre years, and injury years". I remarked: Maybe Mayfield? Never said they played the same.

Hurts has started 2 years...Lamar 5. Hurts' trajectory is much better than Lamar's.

Lamar is not Rodgers. Lamar is not Mahomes. Lamar is Lamar and if you are going to pay a a QB Rodgers rate, or Mahomes, or Allen - then it would make sense that they all have some kind of equality about them that makes them similar. Lamar does not. He doesn't throw the ball like Rodgers, or Mahomes, or Allen, or Burrow, or Herbert, or Watson, or Cousins, or Hurts, or Smith, or Lawrence or even Carr...if we are looking at passing ability, which is what long-term QB contracts are usually based on .... he's more of a Andy Dalton, Mac Jones, Daniel Jones, or even Mills....at least with passing productivity.

Now, what puts Lamar above all of those lower tier QB's is his legs...which is something you seemingly want to ignore. His legs, not this arm, is what makes him special. The issue is, historically speaking, legs don't hold up well. Lamar is going into year 6, which means, likely, teams can expect to start to see a decline in his athletic ability with his leg usage about this year, but certainly in year 7 and 8. Which means, once his ability to use his legs starts to falter, he's not a Rodgers, Mahomes, Burrow category QB, he's a Mills, Dalton, Jones tier QB - and no team wants to be stuck paying Rodgers/Mahomes/Allen/Burrow money for Andy Dalton over the next 4-5 years.

Lamar is Lamar, and his team wins with him more than any other active QB other than Mahomes, who is clearly at the top. Imagine if they actually gave him WRs who can run routes and catch?

Of course his huge advantage is his speed and elusiveness when running. If the Ravens are unwilling to meet his price, let someone else.

 

[Cincyfan78]

Lamar is Lamar, and his team wins with him more than any other active QB other than Mahomes, who is clearly at the top. Imagine if they actually gave him WRs who can run routes and catch?

Of course his huge advantage is his speed and elusiveness when running. If the Ravens are unwilling to meet his price, let someone else.

He has won. Again, no one is stating that he's a bad player, or doesn't win. But past predicators doesn't always mean future success when your talent is based on an ability that historically diminishes at a high rate at the NFL level. This is the very reason you only see small handful of RB's last past their 1st contract, and most end up cut or released before they see the end of their 2nd contract. Legs and knees just go quickly at the NFL level. Arms and Shoulders last decades. These are historical facts.

Teams that are going to pay mega deals for QB's want to know that they are going to get the majority of that deal completed with a QB who will be able to fill those years at a high level. The issue is that Jacksons skillset does not translate to a long-term deal at his age, his usage, and his specific skill set. He also hasn't shown improvement as a passer, nor the ability to command games from the pocket. WR's aren't an excuse, because teams watch film. They know when a QB is doing well despite poor OL or WR play, and know when a QB isn't doing well...Lamar has not done well as a pocket passer. That's fine. His skill set that makes him great is his legs. That's all well and good, but it's also the very reason that many teams view him as a short-term investment - not long-term. Legs. Don't. Last.

Baltimore has allowed other teams to meet Jackson's price. No one is interested because Jackson values his ability long-term much, much higher than other teams do. If this were Mahomes, or Allen, or Burrow, or Herbert...teams would be beating the door down to sign those guys and don't think for a second that someone wouldn't give up 2 first rounders for 6-8 years of any of those guys. Their skill-set projects much, much better over a 6-8 year contract. Lamar's does not, and likely teams will want certain concessions at the backend of the contract. Via in the form of voids, or just un-guaranteed money. Lamar thinks he's worth it. The current market is telling him he's not.

 

[cincygrad]

Kyler Murray is at least a rung below and doesn't win, but he did get 500K more than Watson. 5 years/$230.5M vs 5 years/$230M.

This is misleading. Watson's deal is fully guaranteed. Murray has about 160 million guaranteed. In the last two years of the deal, Murray is slated to make almost 75 million and would only cost 7 million against the cap if he were cut. It's basically a deal that would either be renegotiated if he is good or they will move on and eat a small amount of money.