Cousins' value

[Forty_Sixand2]

Big ahem is another example of a mobile but not athletic QB. He eludes rushes very well, gets the ball away and can slam his fat ass ahead for 3-4 yards when need be.

Still, two of the top 5 IMO are athletic is Rogers and Brees.

Also Cousins will get a 2 at best. There is no precedence for anything better.

 

[Sharkinva]

Big ahem is another example of a mobile but not athletic QB. He eludes rushes very well, gets the ball away and can slam his fat ass ahead for 3-4 yards when need be.

Still, two of the top 5 IMO are athletic is Rogers and Brees.

Also Cousins will get a 2 at best. There is no precedence for anything better.

The Cardinals gave up a starting corner and a 2nd for Kolb. So IF, and I stress the if, Cousins keeps progressing, there is precedence for more than just a 2nd.

 

[JDM]

Good point. Agility would be the athletic trait, but mobility is the skill requires some agility.

Out of curiosity, since this has turned partly into what makes a good QB, how do you view my claim that the redskins should work to be able to treat RG3 fundamentally the same as a Brady or manning? He has the benefit of being able to make plays when things break down, but he has every bit the arm to run their offenses, and would be far more productive in the long run IMO.

 

[Sharkinva]

Out of curiosity, since this has turned partly into what makes a good QB, how do you view my claim that the redskins should work to be able to treat RG3 fundamentally the same as a Brady or manning? He has the benefit of being able to make plays when things break down, but he has every bit the arm to run their offenses, and would be far more productive in the long run IMO.

I know this wasnt directed at me, but i will take a swing at it.

Why would you try and make a QB into something he isnt?? Limiting RG3 to a 3,5,7 step QB takes away one of his greatest assets at the position. Conversely it would be crazy to start calling zone read plays with Brady or Manning under center, because frankly they dont have the speed to get away with it. RG3 will develop his pocket passing ability ( which aint to bad right now any way). But the quickest way to fuck up a good QB prospect is to try and force him to fit into a system instead of making the system fit around him. To make RG3 fit the Brady mold would require a complete change in system, line personnel and play calling. And frankly I think it would actually do more harm than good.

 

[JDM]

He has every bit the skill set to run the offense I am referring to. It's not about forcing him to do what he can't do, but maximizing on the skill set he has. He can play a pocket based offense, and his ability on the ground becomes more dangerous when plays break down. His most valuable skill is his passing ability. I would take him over all but the three elite guys right now if he was solely a passer. The athleticism and speed is a bonus and should be treated as such, not as the basis of the offense.

 

[JDM]

Also, that team has a lot of building to do regardless. I think while they do so they may as well allow him to be truly dominant by building it to take advantage of his throwing ability. It protects him better as well.

 

[Sharkinva]

He has every bit the skill set to run the offense I am referring to. It's not about forcing him to do what he can't do, but maximizing on the skill set he has. He can play a pocket based offense, and his ability on the ground becomes more dangerous when plays break down. His most valuable skill is his passing ability. I would take him over all but the three elite guys right now if he was solely a passer. The athleticism and speed is a bonus and should be treated as such, not as the basis of the offense.

I never said he couldnt do it. But it would be forcing him to play against his natural instincts. And again, it would be limiting what you can do with the offense as a whole. the times he has gotten hurt actually is when plays break down. That is where he needs to adjust. If a play breaks down, he needs to learn to throw the damn ball away, slide or get out of bounds. Aside from that.. dont change a thing. His speed isnt the basis of the offense, it is a bonus. the read option was about 10% of our offense. But the threat of it makes our play action passing better, our ground game better.

 

[skinsdad62]

1st off let me state that mallet is a good young qb and teams would love to have him . the pats i bet would love to keep him

next rodgers , brees , kaep wilson Rg3 and LUCK have to be considered good young mobile qbs (brees not young )

i think the skins would ask for 1ST rounder but would settle for a 2nd depending on where the 2nd falls and could get another pick as well

i think KC is showing quite a bit so far . how that translates to the future is any ones guess

 

[Sportster 72]

It would be horrendous coaching to restrict Griffin to being a pocket passer. It would be equally bad to do that to Cousins who has the ability to roll and move. Robert doesn't have to run the ball a lot, 4-6 times a game is sufficient to make the opposing team defense that option. Last year the fear of of the read option slowed down the pass rush of opposing teams and helped an offensive line that is not adept at blocking for a pure drop back QB. The read option is a small part of the Redskins entire offense. They are still running zone blocking schemes and drop backs. It's just one more wrinkle for other teams to have to prepare for.

It's incumbant on Griffin to learn to slide like the other young QBs do. Listening to him the past week or two I am not so sure he has learned any lessons. It sounds to me like he is trying to put Shanahan in a position to play him before his knee is ready to play. I still hear the same guy who after the Cleveland game last year instead of congratulating Cousins and his teammates talked about how he should be out there. I think Griffin is the best QB in Washington but I think he still needs to grown up and learn to be more a team guy.

 

[JDM]

So he isn't great at protecting himself but you want to continue to run an offense that puts him at risk?

I don't really want to drag out this discussion because I obviously don't have the access to prove myself right, though. I just was curious as to one opinion.

 

[skinsdad62]

So he isn't great at protecting himself but you want to continue to run an offense that puts him at risk?

I don't really want to drag out this discussion because I obviously don't have the access to prove myself right, though. I just was curious as to one opinion.

this all goes back to not knowing the WCO we run . the formation we run , (the pistol ) and the play we run (the read option )

the pistol formation can run our entire offense the read option has shown everyone that he is protected (if you research it )

the thing that makes RG3 go is the threat of the run , why would you take half of what makes a player great and say he cant do it ?

no we will run our offense and we will let RG3 be Rg3

 

[j_y19]

ok, where do i start......first, my definition of the physical traits of an athlete wasn't intended to be limited to the qb position, but a general description of an athlete. You don't have to be big or strong to be a good athlete. Of course being able to throw is a specific requirement to be a successful qb. IMO, an accurate arm is more important than having a cannon. one of the best of all time, joe montana, didn't have a traditional strong arm, but he was deadly accurate. Jeff george is an example of a QB that had a cannon and could make all the throws, but he sucked, partially due to the fact that he couldn't move.

As for the top QBs I mentioned that I thought were athletic, the list of the top QBs come from ESPN QBR rating. I didn't make it up. The young guys WERE in the top 10 last year and I bet most of them will be this year too.

so, JDM, would you rather have an athletic QB, like RG3, Kaepernick, or Wilson or would you be content to stay with Mallet just because he has the stronger arm? If you could trade Mallet today for the first pick in next year's draft to take Manziel, would you do it? Manziel has a noodle arm by NFL standards, but he makes plays.

 

[JDM]

RG3 is special. I would love to put him in the patriots offense and not change a thing. Cousins isn't comparable to even the other guys you have mentioned, so comparing them to mallett to prove your point is silly.

Mallett or manziel? Mallett, no questions asked. Manziel isn't a number one pick though, so your question is foolish. I would give up mallett and take clowney or someone.

 

[j_y19]

I'm not comparing them to Mallet (although they are of the same generation, so its not silly), I'm trying to determine if you would pass on an "athletic" QB to stay with a QB that is known to have a strong arm. I agree RG3 is special, but a big part of his specialness is his running ability and what that does to the defenses. You remove that threat, all the sudden our questionable OL is overrun and RG3 becomes a target. That's when he gets injured. Its not on design runs where he has lead blockers that know where he is going. What about Wilson? If you could trade Mallett for Wilson, would you do it to be the heir apparent to Brady?

 

[JDM]

No. I think Wilson is substantially overrated, and would not pay his inflated price. You don't compare the others to mallett in a discussion of whether cousins is better because cousins doesn't compare particularly favorably to them.

 

[j_y19]

Dude, I'm not talking about Cousins. I'm addressing your comment that you would take a QB with a cannon over an athletic QB. If you would stay with Mallett over Wilson or manziel, then clearly you would. Personally, I think you are crazy. I'd take Wilson any day over Mallett (Manziel, maybe not). What has Ryan ever done? While I might agree that Wilson is not in the same class as RG3 or Kaepernick, he is a proven winner in the NFL, has a very accurate arm, and has shown himself to be a leader.

 

[JDM]

Manziel is tebow v2. Wilson is overhyped and doesn't have the skill set to be elite. You can be elite with mallett's skill set.

And yes, every coach is the NFL will take a guy who can throw and can't run over a guy who can run and can't throw. If you want a black and white answer, that's it.

 

[Clayton]

I think you could get a 2nd rounder out of him

 

[j_y19]

I don't know if Manziel is tebow v2 or not, but what ever skills he has, he's fricking loosing his mind the way he is acting. That's why I would stay away from him.

Of course you would take a QB that can throw over a QB that can't. I'm not talking about QBs that can't throw (tebow), but QBs that can throw very accurately, just not as far as Mallett. But it appears you would take a QB that can throw it further but cant move over a QB that can move and has an accurate arm, but one that is not as strong. Am I reading your position correctly?

 

[JDM]

It's on a case by case basis, obviously. You're the one who tried to treat it as a tautology either way. The only truly mobile QB who has a chance of getting near the elite level is RG3. The rest of the elite guys will continue to be passers first, and RG3 would be better if he did as well.