Cousins' value

[tlance]

I agre he hasn't done enough to date to warrant more than a 2nd. However, I do think we will trade him in the next off season (assuming RG3 remains healthy). We will need that high draft pick next year since we still don't have a first.

I think that was the plan all along right? Hold Cousins and let him develop as the back up and then trade him for picks.

RG3 is the franchise. We are a playoff team with RG3 under center, but maybe a 6-10 team without him. While a solid back-up QB is necessary given RG3's style, if RG3 isn't healthy in the postseason, it doesn't matter who the back-up is. If RG3 makes it through this season healthy and the 'Skins can deal Cousins for a 2nd rounder, they should do it. Cousins may be better than some NFL starters, but he is no game changer.

 

[JDM]

Huh? You're kidding, right? I'll take an athletic QB with an accurate, but average, arm any day over an unathletic one with a cannon. The NFL trash dump is littered with QBs that had great arms but never amounted to anything because they became sitting ducks and were one dimensional.

How many athletic guys are in the top 5 QBs? How many with strong arms? (0 and 4, respectively)

 

[UK Cowboy]

I think that was the plan all along right? Hold Cousins and let him develop as the back up and then trade him for picks.

RG3 is the franchise. We are a playoff team with RG3 under center, but maybe a 6-10 team without him. While a solid back-up QB is necessary given RG3's style, if RG3 isn't healthy in the postseason, it doesn't matter who the back-up is. If RG3 makes it through this season healthy and the 'Skins can deal Cousins for a 2nd rounder, they should do it. Cousins may be better than some NFL starters, but he is no game changer.

Thats why the talk of a #1 and #2 was borderline absurd. Maybe he gets several games as a starter this year and tears up the league and then they get more for him, but I'm not even sure they could get the 2nd today. Matt Barkley went in the 4th Round, Ryan Nassib in the 4th, and they are similar prospects IMO.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Mallett isn't dumb. Unathletic maybe, but no more so than any of the elite QBs in the NFL. It's certainly nice to be athletic but it's not enough on it's own. You have to throw the ball, and Mallett has a cannon.

Mallet makes up for being slow by having the strongest arm in the league. He would have to be in the right system, but he could have success. A team like Minnesota, where they have a great running game and he could work out of the pocket in play action for example. Cousins would probably fit in more schemes than are run today

 

[j_y19]

How many athletic guys are in the top 5 QBs? How many with strong arms? (0 and 4, respectively)

How about aaron rogers, drew Brees, payton manning (excellent athlete, great golfer), colin Kaepernick, RG3, Russell Wilson? That's 6 in the top 10 based on ESPN's QBR rating.

You seem to equate athleticism with speed. They are not synonymous. The game is changing. The offenses are having to adapt to the big, fast DE/OLBs. The days of the stoic, big armed pocket passer are fading. Offenses are all going to have to go to the athletic, mobile, accurate QB that can freeze those fast DEs so they can't just blitz wildly.

 

[tlance]

Thats why the talk of a #1 and #2 was borderline absurd. Maybe he gets several games as a starter this year and tears up the league and then they get more for him, but I'm not even sure they could get the 2nd today. Matt Barkley went in the 4th Round, Ryan Nassib in the 4th, and they are similar prospects IMO.

I do think Cousins is more valuable than those guys, but only because of his experience. Any QB drafted round 3 and later is not counted on to be a future starter. Cousins has shown in small sample sizes that he is a capable QB. Barkley and Nassib each could end up being better, but we just don't know yet.

That is why I think Cousins could be worth a 2nd rounder, but it would take a desperate and poorly managed team to offer more. Any interest Oakland?

 

[j_y19]

Ultimately, none of us really know what Cousins value is. But it is a fact that there are more teams looking for a quality QB than their are quality QBs available. For this reason alone, his value will probably be inflated more than it should. If I had to guess, assuming he continue to look as solid has he has with every opportunity he has received, we can probably get a 2nd, and maybe a 2nd and a 4th or 5th if the draft class next year is as poor as some think.

BTW, Cousins is very athletic. He can move. He's no RG3, probably more of a Brees type athlete.

 

[UK Cowboy]

I do think Cousins is more valuable than those guys, but only because of his experience. Any QB drafted round 3 and later is not counted on to be a future starter. Cousins has shown in small sample sizes that he is a capable QB. Barkley and Nassib each could end up being better, but we just don't know yet.

That is why I think Cousins could be worth a 2nd rounder, but it would take a desperate and poorly managed team to offer more. Any interest Oakland?

I like Cousins a lot, if I am the Redskins, I dont trade him, period. Lets say they traded him next year for a 2nd rounder. Now they have RG3 and his shaky knees, so what do they need to do with that extra 2nd....draft a QB

 

[tlance]

How about aaron rogers, drew Brees, payton manning (excellent athlete, great golfer), colin Kaepernick, RG3, Russell Wilson? That's 6 in the top 10 based on ESPN's QBR rating.

You seem to equate athleticism with speed. They are not synonymous. The game is changing. The offenses are having to adapt to the big, fast DE/OLBs. The days of the stoic, big armed pocket passer are fading. Offenses are all going to have to go to the athletic, mobile, accurate QB that can freeze those fast DEs so they can't just blitz wildly.

I don't think your definition of athleticism is inaccurate. Being good at golf has absolutely nothing to do with athleticism. Golf is a skill game. Some golfers are good athletes, but many are not.

Rogers is an above average athlete by NFL QB standards. Brees, Brady and Peyton are average to below average. Kaeps, RG3, and Wilson are excellent.

Success at the QB position is as dependent on intangibles as it is on arm strength or foot-speed. It isn't Brees' arm or his legs that make him a top 3 QB.

 

[j_y19]

I don't think your definition of athleticism is inaccurate. Being good at golf has absolutely nothing to do with athleticism. Golf is a skill game. Some golfers are good athletes, but many are not.

Rogers is an above average athlete by NFL QB standards. Brees, Brady and Peyton are average to below average. Kaeps, RG3, and Wilson are excellent.

Success at the QB position is as dependent on intangibles as it is on arm strength or foot-speed. It isn't Brees' arm or his legs that make him a top 3 QB.

Peyton is an excellent athlete. But you are correct in that's not what makes him a great QB. It is his ability, pre snap, to dissect the defense and tear it apart. Most of his passes are within a few seconds. He gets rid of the ball. Brees is also an excellent athlete. Both of these guys were multi sport stars in HS.

IMO, 3 three main physical things make someone athletic. Eye -hand coordination, body control, and mobility. All of the players I mention have these these qualities.

 

[j_y19]

A player like Mallet needs a specific offensive scheme to have a chance to be successful. He must have a great OL and a productive running game. Peyton succeeded for years with neither. Rogers has never had great run support, neither has Brees.

 

[JDM]

How about aaron rogers, drew Brees, payton manning (excellent athlete, great golfer), colin Kaepernick, RG3, Russell Wilson? That's 6 in the top 10 based on ESPN's QBR rating.

You seem to equate athleticism with speed. They are not synonymous. The game is changing. The offenses are having to adapt to the big, fast DE/OLBs. The days of the stoic, big armed pocket passer are fading. Offenses are all going to have to go to the athletic, mobile, accurate QB that can freeze those fast DEs so they can't just blitz wildly.

Aaron Rodgers is athletic. He's the one. You have three young guys who had one good season. I believe they will continue to be OK, but they aren't in any top group yet. The best of the best are there based on their arms and decision making and ball placement. Rodgers isn't elite because he's athletic. He's elite because he can throw the ball. Brees is the only top 5 QB without a strong arm. You need to move in the pocket to be successful. You don't need to move all that fast to do so. The top of the league doesn't. The next wave has some good guys who do, but it will be RG3's passing that separates him from the rest. He is an elite athlete which is awesome, but if he's needing to show off that athleticism the whole game, you are in trouble. You want him to be able to stand in the pocket and pick apart the defense all day without needing to move from his spot. On some plays his athleticism will be the difference between a loss and a big play, but his arm will make more differences.

I'm not saying Kirk cousins can't throw. I'm saying your characterization that athleticism matter more than being able to throw isn't close. The windows in the NFL are small and close fast. You have to be able to throw the ball.

 

[tlance]

Peyton is an excellent athlete. But you are correct in that's not what makes him a great QB. It is his ability, pre snap, to dissect the defense and tear it apart. Most of his passes are within a few seconds. He gets rid of the ball. Brees is also an excellent athlete. Both of these guys were multi sport stars in HS.

IMO, 3 three main physical things make someone athletic. Eye -hand coordination, body control, and mobility. All of the players I mention have these these qualities.

That may be your definition, but it isn't what talent evaluators look at. There are 2 broad components to every player. Their athleticism and their skill/knowledge.

I will speak from a basketball standpoint because that is what I know best. When talent evaluators ask how athletic a player is, they are speaking primarily of his size, speed, agility, body control and strength. In other words, these things can be improved somewhat by time in the weight-room, but much of this is determined by genetics.

The skill component is how well a player can shoot, pass, and handle the ball. How is their footwork and decision making? How is their awareness on the defensive end? These are all things that can be taught. Eye-hand coordination falls into the skill components more than the athletic component.

The same concepts apply to football. At the QB position, you can't succeed if you are a bad athlete. Peyton Manning is surely a great athlete compared to you and me. When compared to other QBs and other NFL players, however, he is not. What he is is supremely skilled and supremely intelligent. Skills and knowledge are relatively more important than athleticism at the QB position.

 

[tlance]

Arm strength for a QB would fall into the athleticism category by the way.

 

[JDM]

That may be your definition, but it isn't what talent evaluators look at. There are 2 broad components to every player. Their athleticism and their skill/knowledge.

I will speak from a basketball standpoint because that is what I know best. When talent evaluators ask how athletic a player is, they are speaking primarily of his size, speed, agility, body control and strength. In other words, these things can be improved somewhat by time in the weight-room, but much of this is determined by genetics.

The skill component is how well a player can shoot, pass, and handle the ball. How is their footwork and decision making? How is their awareness on the defensive end? These are all things that can be taught. Eye-hand coordination falls into the skill components more than the athletic component.

The same concepts apply to football. At the QB position, you can't succeed if you are a bad athlete. Peyton Manning is surely a great athlete compared to you and me. When compared to other QBs and other NFL players, however, he is not. What he is is supremely skilled and supremely intelligent. Skills and knowledge are relatively more important than athleticism at the QB position.

This along with explosiveness probably is more or less what I'd think of.

You mention arm strength, and I don't think this is how scouts would generally view it. I agree with you, but they usually have a separate point for arm strength even if he's a great athlete.

 

[tlance]

This along with explosiveness probably is more or less what I'd think of.

You mention arm strength, and I don't think this is how scouts would generally view it. I agree with you, but they usually have a separate point for arm strength even if he's a great athlete.

Sure. Again, basketball is what I know best.

I would think that arm strength and size would be the most important athletic traits for a QB. Mobility would come next. Speed and explosiveness would be nice, but they aren't necessary if the QB has a great skill package.

 

[JDM]

Size is a good one.

Mobility is as much skill as raw ability. Tom Brady is one of the most mobile QBs in the league. He doesn't have the agility or raw talents, but he is very aware of his surroundings and as long as you are not running free (and on rare occasion if you are not), he makes it a non-issue, then makes his throw as planned. I would consider that more skill than anything. Athleticism helps but I wouldn't count it as athleticism.

 

[Mitziman]

JDM is lost. If Cousins is considered to be an NFL starting quarterback by an organization...he will garner a 1st round pick. Why is that so hard to understand? This is a quarterback league, and in the early going Cousins has proved he belongs.

 

[tlance]

Size is a good one.

Mobility is as much skill as raw ability. Tom Brady is one of the most mobile QBs in the league. He doesn't have the agility or raw talents, but he is very aware of his surroundings and as long as you are not running free (and on rare occasion if you are not), he makes it a non-issue, then makes his throw as planned. I would consider that more skill than anything. Athleticism helps but I wouldn't count it as athleticism.

Good point. Agility would be the athletic trait, but mobility is the skill requires some agility.

 

[JDM]

JDM is lost. If Cousins is considered to be an NFL starting quarterback by an organization...he will garner a 1st round pick. Why is that so hard to understand? This is a quarterback league, and in the early going Cousins has proved he belongs.

There is essentially no chance he commands a first round pick. Most of your fans have happily conceded that.