Comedy Platinum out of Toronto - "Canada's Team" quest for the Cup

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Do you really not think that one can find enough clips in a period to paint a negative picture of any player if that's what they're trying to do? That's half of the problem with the irrational portion of the Dion-hating collection. They watch a period, see him lose a couple of puck battles and point and say "SEE!?!?!", without considering that any defenseman who plays regularly takes part in a lot of 50/50 puck battles and is bound to lose a good number of them. It's called "confirmation bias".

If the mistakes that Kessel made in that period were so damaging and so frequent, why did the Caps only have 3 shot attempts while he was on the ice? You said that you can't name one player who had a good game, so the reason can't be that everyone else was covering his ass.

And if he'd stayed on the ice instead, do you not think that the narrative would have simply become "he stayed on too long and was tired and that's why they scored"?

Sometimes guys do a few good things while doing everything else terribly. When you can compile a montage of bad plays of him in one period, I don't care if he alone had 10 shots on goal without scoring, he played like shit. You can disagree, and you can point to his shot attempts (none of which went in) or the shot attempts by the Caps (of the 3, 2 went in the net btw) and point to his crappy team mates. That's your prerogative.

Sometimes, you just gotta admit that your team got shellacked 6-2 and a part in that was played by all. To be honest, it wasn't very difficult to see. If you have the game recorded, watch it and you can watch during the first when that was shown. It was pretty difficult to disagree with Maclean, and that's a tough thing for me to say because he might be just as bad as Milbury when it comes to everything else.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Sometimes guys do a few good things while doing everything else terribly. When you can compile a montage of bad plays of him in one period, I don't care if he alone had 10 shots on goal without scoring, he played like shit. You can disagree, and you can point to his shot attempts (none of which went in) or the shot attempts by the Caps (of the 3, 2 went in the net btw) and point to his crappy team mates. That's your prerogative.

Sometimes, you just gotta admit that your team got shellacked 6-2 and a part in that was played by all. To be honest, it wasn't very difficult to see. If you have the game recorded, watch it and you can watch during the first when that was shown. It was pretty difficult to disagree with Maclean, and that's a tough thing for me to say because he might be just as bad as Milbury when it comes to everything else.

How could 2 of the 3 shot attempts with Kessel on the ice in the first period have gone in? Only 1 goal was scored in that period, and you just told me that Phil was off the ice for it.

Of course it was difficult to disagree with MacLean based on the video he showed. Because he set it up that way and specifically chose those clips, and only those clips.

 

[DragonfromTO]

How could 2 of the 3 shot attempts with Kessel on the ice in the first period have gone in? Only 1 goal was scored in that period, and you just told me that Phil was off the ice for it.

Of course it was difficult to disagree with MacLean based on the video he showed. Because he set it up that way and specifically chose those clips, and only those clips.

I mean, do you think it was just a coincidence that MacLean chose to specifically criticize Kessel yesterday, rather than a narrative he'd written before the game started? Why has MacLean never shown a "highlight reel" like that and made this argument before? Phil's been doing all of this stuff for 40 games, right?

 

[DragonfromTO]

I boldly predict if Kessel is moved he will thrive wherever he goes as long as it isn't TO

just sayin'

This is why we can't have nice things

 

[DevilishWon]

This is why we can't have nice things

Sorry 'bout that...

 

[DragonfromTO]

I'll also add that there's too many to post, but "Quinn McKeen" (@quinnesq) is just lighting it up today. He touched on a few different topics and I don't have any idea who he is, but he's worth taking a look at today.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Of course someone followed up by asking for Bozak's WOWY chart. So I'll post that one too

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

How could 2 of the 3 shot attempts with Kessel on the ice in the first period have gone in? Only 1 goal was scored in that period, and you just told me that Phil was off the ice for it.

Of course it was difficult to disagree with MacLean based on the video he showed. Because he set it up that way and specifically chose those clips, and only those clips.

Wasn't your stat that he has 7 shot attempts and the Caps had 3 all game? If that was just the first period then sorry. Kessel was a -2 for the game, though.

The video just amplified what everyone had just watched. Dude, they aren't good, they aren't playing good, I don't care if they had 4000 shot attempts they lost 6-2. Kessel is playing like a turd - he has 1 goal in his last ten, I believe. Shot attempts are cool; goals are better. And before you go off and say I'm blaming this all on him or something, I'm not. I just don't see why I can't say he's a part of the problem and playing poorly without being some sort of misinformed acolyte of the Brian Burke school of logic and teambuilding.

The possession and shot stats never tell the whole story, and when I see shit like I saw last night and hear that numbers say they actually played well (like Horachek tried to say), rather than convince me I was watching the game wrongly or something it makes me realize even more the greater need to wean people off the analytic Gatorade tubs and back into bottles mixed a little more with the "take a look at the video" syrup.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I boldly predict if Kessel is moved he will thrive wherever he goes as long as it isn't TO

just sayin'

I'm just going to state I think the entire top six of the Leafs should be moved. There isn't a combination here, even if you trade Bozak for a superstar, that will get this team where it needs to go. I think Kessel should be moved just because I'm sick of hearing his fucking name 400 times a day and judging by his recent comments and play it looks like he is too. For better or worse, he will forever represent an era of Leaf hockey punctuated by collapses and failures of the highest order. Fresh starts for everyone.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I'll also add that there's too many to post, but "Quinn McKeen" (@quinnesq) is just lighting it up today. He touched on a few different topics and I don't have any idea who he is, but he's worth taking a look at today.

Didn't Macarthur and Grabo have similar numbers? Do they still have similar numbers?

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Didn't Macarthur and Grabo have similar numbers? Do they still have similar numbers?

I don't know the numbers for this year and I don't know Grabo's numbers (although I think I remember they were quite good last year) but MacArthur had about the 15th highest relative Corsi in the league at LW last year, so I'd say that he did keep playing very good possession hockey.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Just looked up Grabo and he has the third best relCorsi on the Isles this year (a good team).

 

[KennyBanyeah]

Didn't Macarthur and Grabo have similar numbers? Do they still have similar numbers?

I don't know the numbers for this year and I don't know Grabo's numbers (although I think I remember they were quite good last year) but MacArthur had about the 15th highest relative Corsi in the league at LW last year, so I'd say that he did keep playing very good possession hockey.

I just looked up this year for Mac and he's 35th in the league in relCorsi at his position. Not as good as last year but in the 2nd liner range. Last year he was a middle of the road top line LW by all numerical indications.

Just from watching the games, I'd say he's been pretty good this year but has taken a small step back. In short he's playing like a second liner so far, IMO.

The numbers in Mac's case bear out what I see on the ice.

I think the numbers the last 2 years actually bear out what most people knew all long. He's a guy who slots into most teams' top 6. I know a lot of Leafs fans that were sorry to see him go for just that reason.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Wasn't your stat that he has 7 shot attempts and the Caps had 3 all game? If that was just the first period then sorry. Kessel was a -2 for the game, though.

The video just amplified what everyone had just watched. Dude, they aren't good, they aren't playing good, I don't care if they had 4000 shot attempts they lost 6-2. Kessel is playing like a turd - he has 1 goal in his last ten, I believe. Shot attempts are cool; goals are better. And before you go off and say I'm blaming this all on him or something, I'm not. I just don't see why I can't say he's a part of the problem and playing poorly without being some sort of misinformed acolyte of the Brian Burke school of logic and teambuilding.

The possession and shot stats never tell the whole story, and when I see shit like I saw last night and hear that numbers say they actually played well (like Horachek tried to say), rather than convince me I was watching the game wrongly or something it makes me realize even more the greater need to wean people off the analytic Gatorade tubs and back into bottles mixed a little more with the "take a look at the video" syrup.

And in the 10 games before that he had 6 goals and 11 points. Hell, even in the last 10 games he's got 7 points. 18 points in 20 games sounds pretty good to me. But of course he hasn't scored in three games, despite 11 shots. But if 1 or 2 of those goes in (like you'd bet they would), are we even having this discussion? It's a long season and he's not Gretzky, there will be stretches where he doesn't score for a few games.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

And in the 10 games before that he had 6 goals and 11 points. Hell, even in the last 10 games he's got 7 points. 18 points in 20 games sounds pretty good to me. But of course he hasn't scored in three games, despite 11 shots. But if 1 or 2 of those goes in (like you'd bet they would), are we even having this discussion? It's a long season and he's not Gretzky, there will be stretches where he doesn't score for a few games.

Which is exactly my point - right now, he is not playing well. Tomorrow, who knows? I haven't cast any negativity towards him, just stated that he didn't play well last night, numbers be damned. Your possession numbers can be good while turning over the puck a bunch of times. I don't like turnovers.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I just looked up this year for Mac and he's 35th in the league in relCorsi at his position. Not as good as last year but in the 2nd liner range. Last year he was a middle of the road top line LW by all numerical indications.

Just from watching the games, I'd say he's been pretty good this year but has taken a small step back. In short he's playing like a second liner so far, IMO.

The numbers in Mac's case bear out what I see on the ice.

I think the numbers the last 2 years actually bear out what most people knew all long. He's a guy who slots into most teams' top 6. I know a lot of Leafs fans that were sorry to see him go for just that reason.

I was sorry to see him go, and I don't like that his contract money was used on Clarkson. But to hear some people go on, it's as if the Leafs were DOOOOMED once he and Grabo were cut loose. I'm much more upset about a) Burke signing Grabovski to an INSANE contract, and b) The Leafs using the saved salary cap space on Clarkson. I was upset about Bozak, but his contract is actually pretty reasonable and I'm sure they could get some decent parts in a trade for him.

But back to the matter at hand, I always hated that some Leaf fans were acting as if losing Grabo and Mac was like if they had lost Sundin in his prime. Good possession numbers or not, they're both second liners at best and while they have value I'm not shedding tears over lost second liners as much as I am pissed at how they replaced them.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Which is exactly my point - right now, he is not playing well. Tomorrow, who knows? I haven't cast any negativity towards him, just stated that he didn't play well last night, numbers be damned. Your possession numbers can be good while turning over the puck a bunch of times. I don't like turnovers.

I don't think he's become a fundamentally different playet in the last 10 games than he was in the 10 before. Sometimes pucks don't go in. You play, right? Don't you have stretches like that ever?

 

[KennyBanyeah]

I was sorry to see him go, and I don't like that his contract money was used on Clarkson. But to hear some people go on, it's as if the Leafs were DOOOOMED once he and Grabo were cut loose. I'm much more upset about a) Burke signing Grabovski to an INSANE contract, and b) The Leafs using the saved salary cap space on Clarkson. I was upset about Bozak, but his contract is actually pretty reasonable and I'm sure they could get some decent parts in a trade for him.

But back to the matter at hand, I always hated that some Leaf fans were acting as if losing Grabo and Mac was like if they had lost Sundin in his prime. Good possession numbers or not, they're both second liners at best and while they have value I'm not shedding tears over lost second liners as much as I am pissed at how they replaced them.

Not to quibble but last year MacArthur was a solid first liner. Whether you looked at his possession numbers, his scoring numbers or just watched him on a line with Turris (and Ryan often) he was a first liner. So to say he's a second liner (kind of implying that he's generally a 3rd liner) at best is selling him quite short. I'd say his 62 point season with the Leafs was first-line calibre play as well.

Hell, even this year he is 30th among LWs in points which is by the best numerical categories (one first liner per team at each position) makes him a "1st liner". Albeit the lowest scoring 1st liner at his position, but a 1st liner.

The guy's no star but he's a solid top 6 option on just about every team in the league.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I don't think he's become a fundamentally different playet in the last 10 games than he was in the 10 before. Sometimes pucks don't go in. You play, right? Don't you have stretches like that ever?

Yeah, except mine last entire seasons

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Not to quibble but last year MacArthur was a solid first liner. Whether you looked at his possession numbers, his scoring numbers or just watched him on a line with Turris (and Ryan often) he was a first liner. So to say he's a second liner (kind of implying that he's generally a 3rd liner) at best is selling him quite short. I'd say his 62 point season with the Leafs was first-line calibre play as well.

Hell, even this year he is 30th among LWs in points which is by the best numerical categories (one first liner per team at each position) makes him a "1st liner". Albeit the lowest scoring 1st liner at his position, but a 1st liner.

The guy's no star but he's a solid top 6 option on just about every team in the league.

Solid second liner? I'll give you that. Good numbers or not, though, there's a difference between being a first-liner on a non-playoff team and where you fit on a playoff team. Of course, if Ottawa had better goaltending last season they probably would've been a playoff team anyway so...

Needless to say, I'd still like to have Macarthur on the Leafs at his cap number. My beef was more with the Grabovski brigade. I see the possession numbers, and that's decent enough and a fair argument but he also only has 13 points. Know who else has 13 points? David Clarkson. Leafs might've been better off with him, but they were also better off without his contract. The fact they went and acquired even worse contracts doesn't negate that fact.