Blow the team up trade ideas

[Cmon_WTF]

Yeah, you can usually click on either a) the timestamp or b) a 'Details' link for whatever status message you're looking at (if you're using the default web interface and not a standalone client), that will take you to the or whatever link which you can copy/paste here.

I tried that but I get an error message when I reopen the link after posting it. I don't know, I'm doing something wrong. Thanks though.

Wilson for the most part does a very good job as GM. He's put a competitive team on the ice for 8 straight seasons now, there's something to be said for that. He has some hiccups like the Wallin contract and the Ehrhoff trade but there isn't a GM in the league who doesn't make those mistakes from time to time. For a less then desireable destination he's done a good job aquiring and retaining the players he wants. He's also one of the best at negotiating RFA contracts.

IMO where he lacks the most as GM, and this falls on the coaches and scouts shoulders as well since they provide input, is over valuing the contributions and ability levels of bottom six frowards and bottom pairing dmen. This includes prospects in their system.

 

[SJVP408]

Doug is a fine GM. I don't think the problem is at that position. He always gets what the team lacks in terms of on ice skill. Last year the team needed puck movers and possession type guys, he got Wellwood and Ian White. This year they needed bottom 6 scoring and defense, he got Moore, TJ, and Winnik. We would have jumped for joy, back in November, if we knew these would be the deadline additions.

The problem with this roster is the player leadership and team identity that the leadership casts onto the rest of the team. It was apparent back when Patty was Captain and continued when Thornton was appointed Captain. Two players known for being lackadaisical in the face of adversity. I believe we talked about this before when the Sharks got bounced against ANA as the #1 seed. It goes back to having guys that hate to lose over guys that want to win. There's "always tomorrow" with these guys. Nothing fazes them.

I think it might benefit the franchise to get bounced quickly in the playoffs. Get Todd out of here. No, it isn't all his fault, but the coach is always the fall guy. Get a coach that doesn't have faith in the players to motivate themselves so that the coach takes it upon himself to motivate. Guerin and JR both said that the Sharks bench was one of the most quietest benches they've ever seen. Get a fire breather in here. Who cares if that approach only lasts a couple years. That's the Sharks' window to win anyway. The worst thing that can happen is another final 4 appearance where the Sharks bust their asses only to get owned in the conference finals. "It was a great year, we just came up a bit short".

X's and O's wise, I want to go back to what Cmon said earlier, I think in this thread, about how Doug wants to go with more speed and how some guys were having their roles reduced due to their lack of speed. I think one way to play faster is to lump the slow guys all on one line. That may sound stupid, but if Clowe/Thornton/Pavs are on one line, that leaves Marleau, Couture, Havlat, Wingels, TJ, Moore to round out the other two lines which plays faster. As it is, Jumbo will slow play down on his line, Clowe slows play down on the other line. Those are the two main culprits of slowing down play. This also gives a changeup type dimension to the lines. Two play fast, one plays grind it out slow tempo.

I still think this is one helluva talented roster and am shocked that they are scratching at 7th place. I also think Havlat's injury is a huge factor in the offensive troubles of this team as he provided the very unique dimension of a quick playmaker. I still have some faith that they can get it together and surprise all of us. Cause I'm a fool like that.

 

[CJdublé]

^ What he said.

 

[naes666]

Lots of good opinions here and enjoyed reading them, but this franchise needs a fresh start, whatever is the real problem in the locker room should have been addressed by the management a long time ago, it only seems to get serious when the team cannot cruise by on their own talent (no doubt this team is very talented but missing the playoffs would be a pretty big wakeup call that the effort is not satisfactory at this point).

Fire Wilson? I dunno...I don't particularly dislike him but let's face it, the Sharks are lacking and at some point he has to take responsibility, we have this same discussion the last few years and always the question is who to replace him, guess we will see what happens in the next few weeks. Missing the playoffs or even a first round exit and you gotta wonder how a decline in performance will sit with the ownership...in the end they honestly probably don't give two shits though as long as the games are selling out! /shrug

 

[Stackem]

I guess the part that bums me out is I want to like Doug, clearly a smart guy, clearly cares, and has passion for the game and the team. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for many years. Where I think he has now consistently failed though (and yes, I say fail) is on two key fronts: 1) inability to assess and properly value the leadership, character, drive, and determination of individuals (the intangibles that make good players great and those around them better), and 2) willingness to admit when a given strategy hasn't worked and the ability to then change course.

The first point is a slam dunk, there is no question that Thornton in anyway will ever be associated with any of the characteristics associated with leadership, determination, hard work, etc. Its a joke at this point really. So why hasn't something been done? Which leads us to the second point. I guess one can argue that Wilson has each season attempted to enhance and/or change the pieces around his core hoping to hit the winning combination. How many seasons though is it going to take of consistently coming up short before the only common denominator left is the underachieving big ticket captain of the team? Is there no accountability on Doug for this as the GM?

This has been asked for the past few years, is being asked again now, and I can pretty much guarantee, we will be having this same conversation for how ever long the Doug/Joe show is in town.

Kinda bummer really. :ballchain:

Time to drink.

Go Sharks.

 

[23sharks]

Doug is a fine GM. I don't think the problem is at that position. He always gets what the team lacks in terms of on ice skill. Last year the team needed puck movers and possession type guys, he got Wellwood and Ian White. This year they needed bottom 6 scoring and defense, he got Moore, TJ, and Winnik. We would have jumped for joy, back in November, if we knew these would be the deadline additions.

The problem with this roster is the player leadership and team identity that the leadership casts onto the rest of the team. It was apparent back when Patty was Captain and continued when Thornton was appointed Captain. Two players known for being lackadaisical in the face of adversity. I believe we talked about this before when the Sharks got bounced against ANA as the #1 seed. It goes back to having guys that hate to lose over guys that want to win. There's "always tomorrow" with these guys. Nothing fazes them.

I think it might benefit the franchise to get bounced quickly in the playoffs. Get Todd out of here. No, it isn't all his fault, but the coach is always the fall guy. Get a coach that doesn't have faith in the players to motivate themselves so that the coach takes it upon himself to motivate. Guerin and JR both said that the Sharks bench was one of the most quietest benches they've ever seen. Get a fire breather in here. Who cares if that approach only lasts a couple years. That's the Sharks' window to win anyway. The worst thing that can happen is another final 4 appearance where the Sharks bust their asses only to get owned in the conference finals. "It was a great year, we just came up a bit short".

X's and O's wise, I want to go back to what Cmon said earlier, I think in this thread, about how Doug wants to go with more speed and how some guys were having their roles reduced due to their lack of speed. I think one way to play faster is to lump the slow guys all on one line. That may sound stupid, but if Clowe/Thornton/Pavs are on one line, that leaves Marleau, Couture, Havlat, Wingels, TJ, Moore to round out the other two lines which plays faster. As it is, Jumbo will slow play down on his line, Clowe slows play down on the other line. Those are the two main culprits of slowing down play. This also gives a changeup type dimension to the lines. Two play fast, one plays grind it out slow tempo.

I still think this is one helluva talented roster and am shocked that they are scratching at 7th place. I also think Havlat's injury is a huge factor in the offensive troubles of this team as he provided the very unique dimension of a quick playmaker. I still have some faith that they can get it together and surprise all of us. Cause I'm a fool like that.

Completely agree with you. People are really quick to jump on Wilson, but what bad moves has he made??
Pretty much every trade he's made has worked out in the Sharks favor. I can't remember him ever being fleeced.
I've heard people say how he's given up too many prospects. Which of them ever ammounted to shit?? The great Ty Wishart???? Seems to me that he knows which ones to keep and which to trade.
The Sharks have never made a big free agent splash, but he has definitely tried to lure players here. He made a good offer to Vrbata, confirmed by Vrbata, but he decided to stay in Phoenix. He went after Jagr and Gagne, if you believe the reports. He tried to sign Chara when he was a free agent, and Chara said the Sharks actually offered him more $$.
With all that being said, he'll probably be gone if they don't make the playoffs, or have an early exit. Unfortunately, the players are never the ones held accountable, and it's usually the coach or GM that takes the fall, or both.....

 

[sjrules99]

Completely agree with you. People are really quick to jump on Wilson, but what bad moves has he made??
Pretty much every trade he's made has worked out in the Sharks favor. I can't remember him ever being fleeced.
I've heard people say how he's given up too many prospects. Which of them ever ammounted to shit?? The great Ty Wishart???? Seems to me that he knows which ones to keep and which to trade.
The Sharks have never made a big free agent splash, but he has definitely tried to lure players here. He made a good offer to Vrbata, confirmed by Vrbata, but he decided to stay in Phoenix. He went after Jagr and Gagne, if you believe the reports. He tried to sign Chara when he was a free agent, and Chara said the Sharks actually offered him more $$.
With all that being said, he'll probably be gone if they don't make the playoffs, or have an early exit. Unfortunately, the players are never the ones held accountable, and it's usually the coach or GM that takes the fall, or both.....

Dougie wont get fired no matter what happens this year. Also, you are right that he has not been fleeced in any major trade. That said, he does have a handful of headscratchers: wallin, ehrhoff, handzus, mitchell among others. None are such bad deals, but still not good.

 

[Stackem]

Dougie wont get fired no matter what happens this year. Also, you are right that he has not been fleeced in any major trade. That said, he does have a handful of headscratchers: wallin, ehrhoff, handzus, mitchell among others. None are such bad deals, but still not good.

Would add Heatler to the list. Many folks were strongly against acquiring him from before it went down.

 

[SJVP408]

Completely agree with you. People are really quick to jump on Wilson, but what bad moves has he made??
Pretty much every trade he's made has worked out in the Sharks favor. I can't remember him ever being fleeced.
I've heard people say how he's given up too many prospects. Which of them ever ammounted to shit?? The great Ty Wishart???? Seems to me that he knows which ones to keep and which to trade.
The Sharks have never made a big free agent splash, but he has definitely tried to lure players here. He made a good offer to Vrbata, confirmed by Vrbata, but he decided to stay in Phoenix. He went after Jagr and Gagne, if you believe the reports. He tried to sign Chara when he was a free agent, and Chara said the Sharks actually offered him more $$.
With all that being said, he'll probably be gone if they don't make the playoffs, or have an early exit. Unfortunately, the players are never the ones held accountable, and it's usually the coach or GM that takes the fall, or both.....

Yeah he's definitely tried to get the right big ticket UFAs. The ones you mentioned and he also tried to lure Scott Niedermier but fricken Ducks had to sign Rob Nieds and Scott wanted to go play with his bro.

I think management is pretty happy with Doug and his track record of getting into the playoffs for the past 6(?) years. If the Sharks fail to make the playoffs or go past the first round, I think it's Todd's head that will roll and not Doug's. The only bad recent move Doug has made in the eyes of management is probably Nitty and how he's being paid $2 to play in where ever the heck he's playing.

Doug keeps us interested during the summer by making those major off season moves. It's rarely the same ol roster from year to year. Whether that's a good or bad thing I don't know, but it sure keeps things interesting, gives us something to talk about, and gives us the hope that "this year is going to be different". That gets butts in the seats and management has to be pleased by that.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Yeah he's definitely tried to get the right big ticket UFAs. The ones you mentioned and he also tried to lure Scott Niedermier but fricken Ducks had to sign Rob Nieds and Scott wanted to go play with his bro.

I think management is pretty happy with Doug and his track record of getting into the playoffs for the past 6(?) years. If the Sharks fail to make the playoffs or go past the first round, I think it's Todd's head that will roll and not Doug's. The only bad recent move Doug has made in the eyes of management is probably Nitty and how he's being paid $2 to play in where ever the heck he's playing.

Doug keeps us interested during the summer by making those major off season moves. It's rarely the same ol roster from year to year. Whether that's a good or bad thing I don't know, but it sure keeps things interesting, gives us something to talk about, and gives us the hope that "this year is going to be different". That gets butts in the seats and management has to be pleased by that.

This isn't always a positive. Too many changes are often more detrimental to a team then not enough.

 

[SJVP408]

This isn't always a positive. Too many changes are often more detrimental to a team then not enough.

Assuming that is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, which roster should Doug stayed with? As far as top 6 Fs and top 4 Ds go, perhaps keep Michalek and Cheechoo and never experiment with Heater? But then with Heater they went to the Conference Finals twice. Perhaps don't move Heatley for Havlat? But then Heater was just soooo slow and at times ineffective. Maybe don't trade Seto for Burns? But I love what Burns can become and don't miss Seto's inconsistency one bit.

Looking back at the roster a few years, I don't know of any one move that stands out as a move he shouldn't have made. Maybe keep Nabby? But we were all so sick of watching his failures in the playoffs. There was a reason Doug made each of his moves and even in hindsight, it's hard to say which move he shouldn't have made that caused the issue of too much roster turnover being a detriment. The one event that hurt the team a lot was Rob Blake's retirement, but can't do anything about that.

Off the top of my head here are the moves that contributed to the high turnover rate over the past few years:

Trade for Boyle > Carle leaves
Traded Ehrhoff > Perhaps Heater trade isn't made/Blake isn't re-signed
Trade for Heater > Michalek, Cheechoo leaves
Trade for Havlat > Heater leaves
Trade for Burns > Seto gone, as a byproduct Ian White is not retained
Didn't re-sign Nabby > enter Niemi
Didn't re-sign Malhotra
Didn't re-sign Wellwood
Didn't re-sign Goc
Didn't re-sign Mayers
Didn't re-sign Nichol
Didn't re-sign Huskins

All of those moves seem justified in my book except maybe the Heater from OTT trade. There's definitely a case for high turnover amongst the bottom 6 forward group.

 

[abaskin18]

Off the top of my head here are the moves that contributed to the high turnover rate over the past few years:

Trade for Boyle > Carle leaves
Traded Ehrhoff > Perhaps Heater trade isn't made/Blake isn't re-signed
Trade for Heater > Michalek, Cheechoo leaves
Trade for Havlat > Heater leaves
Trade for Burns > Seto gone, as a byproduct Ian White is not retained
Didn't re-sign Nabby > enter Niemi
Didn't re-sign Malhotra
Didn't re-sign Wellwood
Didn't re-sign Goc
Didn't re-sign Mayers
Didn't re-sign Nichol
Didn't re-sign Huskins

All of those moves seem justified in my book except maybe the Heater from OTT trade. There's definitely a case for high turnover amongst the bottom 6 forward group.

Big assumptions in bold. I know I'm guilty of assuming in regards to correlating Heatley and Erhoff. "As a byproduct a FA Dman is not pursued" is more of a reflection of reality on the latter, imo.

Nice rundown, VP.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Assuming that is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, which roster should Doug stayed with? As far as top 6 Fs and top 4 Ds go, perhaps keep Michalek and Cheechoo and never experiment with Heater? But then with Heater they went to the Conference Finals twice. Perhaps don't move Heatley for Havlat? But then Heater was just soooo slow and at times ineffective. Maybe don't trade Seto for Burns? But I love what Burns can become and don't miss Seto's inconsistency one bit.

Looking back at the roster a few years, I don't know of any one move that stands out as a move he shouldn't have made. Maybe keep Nabby? But we were all so sick of watching his failures in the playoffs. There was a reason Doug made each of his moves and even in hindsight, it's hard to say which move he shouldn't have made that caused the issue of too much roster turnover being a detriment. The one event that hurt the team a lot was Rob Blake's retirement, but can't do anything about that.

Off the top of my head here are the moves that contributed to the high turnover rate over the past few years:

Trade for Boyle > Carle leaves
Traded Ehrhoff > Perhaps Heater trade isn't made/Blake isn't re-signed
Trade for Heater > Michalek, Cheechoo leaves
Trade for Havlat > Heater leaves
Trade for Burns > Seto gone, as a byproduct Ian White is not retained
Didn't re-sign Nabby > enter Niemi
Didn't re-sign Malhotra
Didn't re-sign Wellwood
Didn't re-sign Goc
Didn't re-sign Mayers
Didn't re-sign Nichol
Didn't re-sign Huskins

All of those moves seem justified in my book except maybe the Heater from OTT trade. There's definitely a case for high turnover amongst the bottom 6 forward group.

The roster he should have stuck with for another season was the 08-09 team. The only move he needed to make to either the top 9 forward group or to the dmen was to drop Cheechoo and sign another 2nd/3rd liner. That team lost in the 1st round because of injuries. Marleau (Shoulder), Michalek (Knee), Boyle (Knee, Wrist), Ehrhoff (Ankle), Blake (Back), and Nabokov (Groin). All those players were playing with those injuries during the Ducks series.

There's nothing wrong with any of the changes Wilson has made to the roster. Each was done to address a specific need and with the exception of the Ehrhoff trade he has recieved good to great value in return. The problem is historically too many changes to the roster yeald poor results even if you are bringing in a higher quality player who better fits the needs of the team with those changes.

 

[SJVP408]

The roster he should have stuck with for another season was the 08-09 team. The only move he needed to make to either the top 9 forward group or to the dmen was to drop Cheechoo and sign another 2nd/3rd liner. That team lost in the 1st round because of injuries. Marleau (Shoulder), Michalek (Knee), Boyle (Knee, Wrist), Ehrhoff (Ankle), Blake (Back), and Nabokov (Groin). All those players were playing with those injuries during the Ducks series.

There's nothing wrong with any of the changes Wilson has made to the roster. Each was done to address a specific need and with the exception of the Ehrhoff trade he has recieved good to great value in return. The problem is historically too many changes to the roster yeald poor results even if you are bringing in a higher quality player who better fits the needs of the team with those changes.

The biggest changes from the 08-09 team to the next season was:

Heater in > Michalek, Cheechoo out
Ehrhoff out > no replacement
Grier out > Malhotra in
Goc out > Nichol in
Brad Lukowich out > Huskins in
Thomas Plihal out > Ortmeyer in
Semenov out > Jay Leach in
Demers joins big club
Roenick retired

That is a lot of turnover to a President's Cup winning team. Yet they went from bounced in round 1 to a final 4 appearance. If all those injuries played a large role in the ANA defeat, Doug should have resisted from making the bolded moves. The others he couldn't help or had to be done imo.

Saying that Doug has an itchy trigger finger would be an understatement.