Best Starting Pitcher of all Time?

[StanMarsh51]

Well aren't we bouncing around the room now? You're moving us from comparing Pedro's and Johnson's careers to comparing Pedro's 2000 season to Clemens' 1997 season. I've got some work to do, so I don't think I'm going to pick up a new flag. However, my first thought would be that while Pedro may have been juicing in 2000, we know that Clemens was in '97.

You're the one mentioning that Johnson never had a season with a 200 ERA+, correct? And that's while ignoring that Johnson had some seasons where he threw 260+ innings, far more than Pedro was throwing many of those years in his prime. It's a lot easier to post a 200 ERA+ in a 199 or 210 inning season than it is in a 250+ inning season.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

You're the one mentioning that Johnson never had a season with a 200 ERA+, correct? And that's while ignoring that Johnson had some seasons where he threw 260+ innings, far more than Pedro was throwing many of those years in his prime. It's a lot easier to post a 200 ERA+ in a 199 or 210 inning season than it is in a 250+ inning season.

Yes, that was me. Now that you point that out, it makes perfect sense that you went from comparing Johnson's and Pedro's careers to comparing two seasons between Pedro and Clemens.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Yes, that was me. Now that you point that out, it makes perfect sense that you went from comparing Johnson's and Pedro's careers to comparing two seasons between Pedro and Clemens.

Just kidding.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

You're the one mentioning that Johnson never had a season with a 200 ERA+, correct? And that's while ignoring that Johnson had some seasons where he threw 260+ innings, far more than Pedro was throwing many of those years in his prime. It's a lot easier to post a 200 ERA+ in a 199 or 210 inning season than it is in a 250+ inning season.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but I'm afraid you're missing my point, Stan. For seven seasons, 1,400+ innings, Pedro Martinez AVERAGED a 213 ERA+. Seven seasons. Averaged.

 

[Wazmankg]

Maddux.

This won't be popular but I eliminate the pre-color line guys when it comes to pitching. I don't for hitters. The breaking of the color line saw a much greater influx of great hitters than great pitchers rendering the old timer pitchers stats less impressive, at least in my mind. The assumption being that there were probably a lot of great position players Walter Johnson never had to face, but not so many great pitchers The Babe got to dodge.

Maddux was clean. I'm guessing here, of course, but he didn't get better as he aged into his mid to late 30s. He got worse, which is what's supposed to happen for a normal human being. Also, he wasn't a power pitcher. Roids might have screwed with his timing.

 

[GNG]

Warren Spahn

 

[StanMarsh51]

I wouldn't disagree with that, but I'm afraid you're missing my point, Stan. For seven seasons, 1,400+ innings, Pedro Martinez AVERAGED a 213 ERA+. Seven seasons. Averaged.

But he wasn't throwing that many innings in a number of those seasons, which possibly helped his ERA+. The last 3 years in that stretch, he averaged only 168 innings a season and topped out at 199.1. If you look collectively from 1997-2003, he averaged just 201 innings/season.

If Pedro were averaging 240 innings a season during that stretch instead of 200, I wouldn't bet on him keeping or improving upon that 213 ERA+.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Warren Spahn

How many times are you going to say the same thing like a parrot?

 

[GNG]

How many times are you going to say the same thing like a parrot?

No love for Warren Spahn?

 

[StanMarsh51]

No love for Warren Spahn?

Great career, but what makes him the best ever?

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Maddux.

This won't be popular but I eliminate the pre-color line guys when it comes to pitching. I don't for hitters. The breaking of the color line saw a much greater influx of great hitters than great pitchers rendering the old timer pitchers stats less impressive, at least in my mind. The assumption being that there were probably a lot of great position players Walter Johnson never had to face, but not so many great pitchers The Babe got to dodge.

Maddux was clean. I'm guessing here, of course, but he didn't get better as he aged into his mid to late 30s. He got worse, which is what's supposed to happen for a normal human being. Also, he wasn't a power pitcher. Roids might have screwed with his timing.

I have the same thoughts regarding the color line. However, I don't eliminate guys before the line, I just consider the line. I also don't approach hitters and pitchers differently. That would imply that colored folks can hit stuff good, but can't throw stuff good and that's rayciss.

I also think it's not just blacks, but now many great Mexicans (Pedro as an example), both hitters and pitchers, are in the majors. Their ilk certainly weren't in MLB a hundred years ago. The pool of talent that MLB draws from is significantly larger and more sophisticated than it was back then.

That said, I think Maddux is a great choice.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

But he wasn't throwing that many innings in a number of those seasons, which possibly helped his ERA+. The last 3 years in that stretch, he averaged only 168 innings a season and topped out at 199.1. If you look collectively from 1997-2003, he averaged just 201 innings/season.

If Pedro were averaging 240 innings a season during that stretch instead of 200, I wouldn't bet on him keeping or improving upon that 213 ERA+.

I give up. You're right, man. Pitching a qualifying 200+ ERA+ season isn't that big of a deal. I'm going to just overlook the fact that there have only been 37 such seasons in the entire fucking history of Major League Baseball. I know that if all these great pitchers who pitched 250+ inning seasons had limited themselves to only 200 innings, they'd all have tons of 200+ ERA+ seasons. Nothing to see here.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I give up. You're right, man. Pitching a qualifying 200+ ERA+ season isn't that big of a deal. I'm going to just overlook the fact that there have only been 37 such seasons in the entire fucking history of Major League Baseball. I know that if all these great pitchers who pitched 250+ inning seasons had limited themselves to only 200 innings, they'd all have tons of 200+ ERA+ seasons. Nothing to see here.

Only 17 since 1950.

 

[Voltaire26]

I went with Cy Young, 511 victories and 7356 innings is a little too much to ignore. Good list and good thoughts.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Only 17 since 1950.

Almost 30% of those were tossed by Pedro.

 

[GNG]

Great career, but what makes him the best ever?

He is in my opinion.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I give up.

That was a lie.

Pedro Martinez:

1997 - 241 innings - 219 ERA+

Randy Johnson pitched nine seasons with innings between 199 and 245 innings, many of them while in his prime, yet he couldn't get over 200 ERA+ once. Pedro did it four times.

 

[Wazmankg]

I have the same thoughts regarding the color line. However, I don't eliminate guys before the line, I just consider the line. I also don't approach hitters and pitchers differently. That would imply that colored folks can hit stuff good, but can't throw stuff good and that's rayciss.

I also think it's not just blacks, but now many great Mexicans (Pedro as an example), both hitters and pitchers, are in the majors. Their ilk certainly weren't in MLB a hundred years ago. The pool of talent that MLB draws from is significantly larger and more sophisticated than it was back then.

That said, I think Maddux is a great choice.

I don't think it implies any such thing. I think it's just a consequence of my ability to do math. For decades after Robinson broke the color line the % of black position players was much higher than the % of black pitchers. Why that was the case is irrelevant with respect to assessing their impact (or absence had) on the accomplishments of those who played before and after. Hispanic players have had a huge impact on the game, obviously, especially the past 25 years or so. But while the talent pool is larger there is one thing about MLB that makes it different than any other sport when comparing eras. MLB was virtually the only way a guy could make a nice living using his athletic ability for the first several decades of the 20th century. Today there are probably millionaire competitive skateboarders. Name virtually any sport or game and there are guys getting rich playing it for money. So that's the other side of the talent pool coin. Today dozens of sports are drawing athletes for money who had no other avenue but baseball in the 20s. But that's another discussion.

 

[Wazmankg]

No love for Warren Spahn?

Great pitcher. WW2 possibly kept him from 400 wins. But 119 ERA+ and 1.19 WHIP aren't the stats of the GOAT.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I don't think it implies any such thing.

Nor do I, but apparently I must revisit the first rule of comedy.

Rule #1: if you have to explain your joke, it wasn't funny.