Best Starting Pitcher of all Time?

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Sale had a much better ERA+ than Kluber in a lot fewer innings, just as Pedro had a much better ERA+ than Johnson in a lot fewer innings.

How is that not comparable?

If you look at it from this perspective:

In 2014, Sale had an ERA+ 17% better than Kluber in 18% less innings.
In their careers, Pedro had an ERA+ 14% better than Johnson in 31% less innings.

I feel I need to remind you that my initial point was that for seven seasons Pedro Martinez carried a 213 ERA+, and for perspective, I noted Johnson never had a single season with an ERA+ over 200. I did this in response to someone saying that their two peaks were similar -- they weren't. In fact, I'm not sure any pitcher in history has such an extraordinary and sustained peak as Pedro Martinez did.

You keep trying to relate single season comparisons to my point, but they're just obfuscations.

Obviously, it would be more difficult to pitch to a 200+ ERA+ over 260 innings than over 200 innings. You know what would be even harder? 1,400+ consecutive innings with a 213 ERA+. That was my point.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Sale had a much better ERA+ than Kluber in a lot fewer innings, just as Pedro had a much better ERA+ than Johnson in a lot fewer innings.

How is that not comparable?


If you look at it from this perspective:

In 2014, Sale had an ERA+ 17% better than Kluber in 18% less innings.
In their careers, Pedro had an ERA+ 14% better than Johnson in 31% less innings.

It's not comparable because I'm talking about a historically significant 1,400 consecutive

Regardless, baseball was it if athletes were going to make a buck playing a sport and many made very good money for their time. The average salary in the early 1900 was > $5k or nearly $200k in today's dollars... and there was no income or SS tax.

All-Star Earners - Forbes

There were no unions and some lesser lights may have had off season jobs but I doubt many were turning their noses up at that to be famous sports stars and play ball for 6 months a year.

Gotta tell you, that Forbes article was an eye opener, and flies in the face of what I'd seen/read in the past. I've seen stories about guys who were very good/great MLB players who opted to run their parents' general store because they could make more money. Forbes seems to have taken a much more comprehensive look at it.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

It's not comparable because I'm talking about a historically significant 1,400 consecutive


Gotta tell you, that Forbes article was an eye opener, and flies in the face of what I'd seen/read in the past. I've seen stories about guys who were very good/great MLB players who opted to run their parents' general store because they could make more money. Forbes seems to have taken a much more comprehensive look at it.

Thanks for sharing.

That first bit about historically significant was a mistake. Has nothing to do with the Forbes article and I didn't mean to post it at all, let alone in conjunction with the other reply.

What can I say? im an asshole.

 

[Wazmankg]

That first bit about historically significant was a mistake. Has nothing to do with the Forbes article and I didn't mean to post it at all, let alone in conjunction with the other reply.

What can I say? im an asshole.

No you're not...not for that anyway. I try to confine my assholery to the politics forum myself. Actually you made a good point. Many guys did have to work off season. That Forbes article doesn't really say anything about the median. The big money guys probably skewed the average and from looking at other sources it's really hard to find solid consistent salary numbers from back then. But I still have to think that playing ball for whatever money they were paid beat the hell out of whatever else they could have been doing for a living for the overwhelming majority of guys with the ability to do so.

 

[gunnarthor]

I feel I need to remind you that my initial point was that for seven seasons Pedro Martinez carried a 213 ERA+, and for perspective, I noted Johnson never had a single season with an ERA+ over 200. I did this in response to someone saying that their two peaks were similar -- they weren't. In fact, I'm not sure any pitcher in history has such an extraordinary and sustained peak as Pedro Martinez did.

You keep trying to relate single season comparisons to my point, but they're just obfuscations.

Obviously, it would be more difficult to pitch to a 200+ ERA+ over 260 innings than over 200 innings. You know what would be even harder? 1,400+ consecutive innings with a 213 ERA+. That was my point.

And 171 ERA+ over 2,100 consecutive innings is even more impressive.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

No you're not...not for that anyway. I try to confine my assholery to the politics forum myself. Actually you made a good point. Many guys did have to work off season. That Forbes article doesn't really say anything about the median. The big money guys probably skewed the average and from looking at other sources it's really hard to find solid consistent salary numbers from back then. But I still have to think that playing ball for whatever money they were paid beat the hell out of whatever else they could have been doing for a living for the overwhelming majority of guys with the ability to do so.

And 171 ERA+ over 2,100 consecutive innings is even more impressive.

That's debatable.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

And 171 ERA+ over 2,100 consecutive innings is even more impressive.

By the way, Pedro Martinez started his career with 2,079 INN 175 ERA+.

 

[Montalban]

We had a convo about this recently and there were some differing opinions, just wanted to see what the Hoop has to say.

Who's the best there ever was?

There are some I had to leave off like Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson and many others feel free to post someone not listed.

I have to go with Koufax

 

[StanMarsh51]

By the way, Pedro Martinez started his career with 2,079 INN 175 ERA+.

And Johnson had an additional 2,000 innings of being a pretty solid pitcher (110 ERA+) on top of that dominant 2,100 inning stretch. That's a lot of added career value right there.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I feel I need to remind you that my initial point was that for seven seasons Pedro Martinez carried a 213 ERA+, and for perspective, I noted Johnson never had a single season with an ERA+ over 200. I did this in response to someone saying that their two peaks were similar -- they weren't. In fact, I'm not sure any pitcher in history has such an extraordinary and sustained peak as Pedro Martinez did.

You keep trying to relate single season comparisons to my point, but they're just obfuscations.

Obviously, it would be more difficult to pitch to a 200+ ERA+ over 260 innings than over 200 innings. You know what would be even harder? 1,400+ consecutive innings with a 213 ERA+. That was my point.

And I feel the need to remind you that 7 seasons and 1,400 innings is hardly an entire career, no close to one for these two pitchers (or any pitcher in the discussion for best of all time).

As you and gunnathor mentioned earlier, both Johnson and Pedro had a 2,100ish inning stretcheswhere they had an ERA+ in the 170-175 range. Johnson however had an extra 2,000 innings on top of that where he was pretty solid (110 ERA+). That's a lot of extra career value added.

If my math is correct, Pedro would need to post a 4.06 ERA in an additional 1300 innings to have the same number of innings and ERA as Johnson. Given how Pedro ended his career (4.58 ERA in his final 315 innings), I'm not so sure he could've done that...and if you want to think that he might've been able to tack on more innings at the beginning of his career, that could've possibly hurt him in his prime as he'd have a lot of innings logged on that arm of his.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

And Johnson had an additional 2,000 innings of being a pretty solid pitcher (110 ERA+) on top of that dominant 2,100 inning stretch. That's a lot of added career value right there.

Keep moving the goal post, Stan.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

And I feel the need to remind you that 7 seasons and 1,400 innings is hardly an entire career, no close to one for these two pitchers (or any pitcher in the discussion for best of all time).

As you and gunnathor mentioned earlier, both Johnson and Pedro had a 2,100ish inning stretcheswhere they had an ERA+ in the 170-175 range. Johnson however had an extra 2,000 innings on top of that where he was pretty solid (110 ERA+). That's a lot of extra career value added.

If my math is correct, Pedro would need to post a 4.06 ERA in an additional 1300 innings to have the same number of innings and ERA as Johnson. Given how Pedro ended his career (4.58 ERA in his final 315 innings), I'm not so sure he could've done that...and if you want to think that he might've been able to tack on more innings at the beginning of his career, that could've possibly hurt him in his prime as he'd have a lot of innings logged on that arm of his.

Get ahold of yourself, Stan.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I have to go with Koufax

As a half-Jew, I love the Koufax call (three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax...). However, his time as an amazing pitcher was just so short. If Pedro can't be considered the GOAT (which I agree with), certainly neither could Koufax.

What I don't understand is how if you bring Pedro into the conversation, some people lose their shit, while those same people have nothing to say about Koufax being discussed.

I like Koufax a lot, but I would put Pedro ahead of him on an all-time list.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I wish we could have seen where Feller would have ranked had he not taken time off to be a WWII hero.

Certainly, he doesn't have the creditials as it is to be the GOAT, but he may have had the votes of Ted Williams and Stan Musial.

Ted Williams called Mr. Feller “the fastest and best pitcher I ever saw during my career. . . . He had the best fastball and curve I’ve ever seen.’’ Stan Musial called him “probably the greatest pitcher of our era.’’

 

[JimmyT]

No Nolan Ryan?

The guy was good for a no hitter almost every start. He was also a good power pitcher for a long time.

With the choices I would go with Maddux he was a guy that painted corners and didn't have any 1 over powering pitch. The guy just knew how to make guys swing at shit that wasn't a strike.

My asterisk is for Mark Fidrych, rest in peace Bird.. If it wasn't for the for torn rotator cuff he would be on that list IMO.

Yep, he had a brief almost Kofax like time but he was electric!

 

[JimmyT]

Babe Ruth and Don Drysdale should be included.

Hey I am new on here and am unable to make changes to my profile like adding a picture. Can you advise?

 

[JimmyT]

Definitely. Sad thing is, a guy like Maddux would get overlooked today by scouts because of the fastball topping out in the high 80's.

But a great example that you don't have to have a 95 mph fastball to be a great pitcher. Just looking at him, his stature doesn't even speak to anything athletic. He looked like a guy who would be doing your taxes.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

But a great example that you don't have to have a 95 mph fastball to be a great pitcher. Just looking at him, his stature doesn't even speak to anything athletic. He looked like a guy who would be doing your taxes.

I seem to recall reading an interview with a current major league scout who was of the impression that if Maddux were a high schooler/college kid these days he might not even get drafted because he didn't have a rocket arm and, like you're pointing, looks like an accountant.

 

[RoboticDreams]

Hey I am new on here and am unable to make changes to my profile like adding a picture. Can you advise?

I guess not.

 

[Montalban]

As a half-Jew, I love the Koufax call (three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax...). However, his time as an amazing pitcher was just so short. If Pedro can't be considered the GOAT (which I agree with), certainly neither could Koufax.

What I don't understand is how if you bring Pedro into the conversation, some people lose their shit, while those same people have nothing to say about Koufax being discussed.

I like Koufax a lot, but I would put Pedro ahead of him on an all-time list.

I think its because Koufax played before most our times and he has this mythical quality about him since there is little footage, just memories of the greats who tried to hit him.