Best Starting Pitcher of all Time?

[Nosferatu]

We had a convo about this recently and there were some differing opinions, just wanted to see what the Hoop has to say.

Who's the best there ever was?

There are some I had to leave off like Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson and many others feel free to post someone not listed.

 

[HammerDown]

There's Nolan Ryan.

Then there's everyone else.

 

[Chewbaccer]

To me it's gotta be either Maddux, Pedro, Clemens or Randy Johnson.

Dominant pitchers in the best offensive era in the history of the league. I'm a homer, so I voted for Maddux, but I wouldn't take issue with any of these four being argued. Sure, Clemens might have had an edge over the others, but it's still hard to ignore what he did. Pedro in his peak was the best of the bunch, so if you're into peak seasons, Pedro is your guy, but the other 3 were good longer. And the Big Unit is the most intimidating MLB pitcher of my life time. I can remember nearly every pitch of the perfect game he threw against the Braves.

Great topic of discussion.

 

[jdwills126]

No Nolan Ryan?

The guy was good for a no hitter almost every start. He was also a good power pitcher for a long time.

With the choices I would go with Maddux he was a guy that painted corners and didn't have any 1 over powering pitch. The guy just knew how to make guys swing at shit that wasn't a strike.

My asterisk is for Mark Fidrych, rest in peace Bird.. If it wasn't for the for torn rotator cuff he would be on that list IMO.

 

[Chewbaccer]

There's Nolan Ryan.

Then there's everyone else.

I've been one to argue Ryan as one of the all time greats. I always got shot down for it on Fannation.

 

[Cali Steel]

God, that's a tough one.
There is a long list of great starters, and depending on the decade they played in, there can be different factors that come into play.
Your list is a real good start though.
I might add..
Whitey Ford
Juan Marichal
Nolan Ryan
Satchel Paige

 

[broncosmitty]

Walter Johnson

 

[StanMarsh51]

No Nolan Ryan?

The guy was good for a no hitter almost every start. He was also a good power pitcher for a long time.

With the choices I would go with Maddux he was a guy that painted corners and didn't have any 1 over powering pitch. The guy just knew how to make guys swing at shit that wasn't a strike.

My asterisk is for Mark Fidrych, rest in peace Bird.. If it wasn't for the for torn rotator cuff he would be on that list IMO.

Ryan's probably not in the conversation for top 10 ever, let alone best ever.

Good pitcher who pitched for a very long time...he didn't have that many great/Cy caliber seasons, which is why he doesn't belong here.

 

[GNG]

We had a convo about this recently and there were some differing opinions, just wanted to see what the Hoop has to say.

Who's the best there ever was?

There are some I had to leave off like Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson and many others feel free to post someone not listed.

Warren Spahn.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Ryan's probably not in the conversation for top 10 ever, let alone best ever.

Good pitcher who pitched for a very long time...he didn't have that many great/Cy caliber seasons, which is why he doesn't belong here.

Longevity is an underrated stat. An unbeatable record of career strikeouts and 7 no hitters. Pretty dominant if you ask me. I don't think he's number 1, but he's definitely in my top 10.

 

[Chewbaccer]

You have to admire guys like Spahn and Marichal as well. They both pitched a complete game in a 15 inning affair. They probably would have bitch slapped anyone who tried to take them off the mound because of a high pitch count too.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Longevity is an underrated stat. An unbeatable record of career strikeouts and 7 no hitters. Pretty dominant if you ask me. I don't think he's number 1, but he's definitely in my top 10.

But a no-hitter is just 1 game. I'd rather have my pitcher have a great season than a single epic game.

For a guy who played 25 years, just 3x did he finish in the top 10 in the majors in ERA, with just 2x in the top 5. I agree that longevity is a skill and adds career value, but you gotta do better than a couple of great seasons to be in the conversation for best ever.

There was an article I read a while back (I think a Rob Neyer article) that pointed out that if you were to look at each seasons in Ryan's career, he was outperformed by a teammate in the majority of those seasons (whether it be Tanana, Mike Scott, Kevin Brown, etc). A guy who's a top 10 pitcher ever should be the best pitcher on the majority of his teams, unless he's playing with another legend.

 

[Chewbaccer]

But a no-hitter is just 1 game. I'd rather have my pitcher have a great season than a single epic game.

For a guy who played 25 years, just 3x did he finish in the top 10 in the majors in ERA, with just 2x in the top 5. I agree that longevity is a skill and adds career value, but you gotta do better than a couple of great seasons to be in the conversation for best ever.

He also lead the league in strikeouts 11 times, stuck out more than 300 6 times, has the most career strikeouts by a longshot, allowed the fewest hits per 9 innings ever and pitched a lot of innings every year.

I can see the other side of the argument, and while I don't think he's the best, he is solidly in my top 10.

 

[jdwills126]

Nolan Ryan didn't get to pitch on many quality teams. 27 years and 5 appearance.

Put him on the Yankees or Cardinals and he is best ever, media and players surrounding him.

Plus he whipped Robin Ventura's ass.

The guys before 1970 I have a hard time judging since I didn't get to see them. I will say the later pitchers that did it in the AL with the DH, and more international guys, plus onset of PEDs really should get the benefit over the old timers and NL pitchers.

 

[calsnowskier]

WAY too many variables to vote for one.

Koufax or Martinez probably had the greatest peaks, but their windows were pretty small. Ryan was a stud for a long time, but he was never really in that "super-elite" class.

Then you have the different eras. Was Maddux more accurate than Mathewson? Was Johnson more intimidating than Gibson?

I like the discussion, but I am completely unable to vote for just one. There is a top tier, but not a champ.

 

[BritishDolfan]

Ryan would be in my top 10 for sure. As would Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn and a few others. It's difficult to compare pitchers like Cy Young to more recent guys though.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Nolan Ryan didn't get to pitch on many quality teams. 27 years and 5 appearance.

Put him on the Yankees or Cardinals and he is best ever, media and players surrounding him.

Plus he whipped Robin Ventura's ass.

The guys before 1970 I have a hard time judging since I didn't get to see them. I will say the later pitchers that did it in the AL with the DH, and more international guys, plus onset of PEDs really should get the benefit over the old timers and NL pitchers.

Give me a break...

The majority of the teams Ryan was on had winning records, and for his overall career, his teams' collective winning record was better than .500.

Tom Seaver's teams collectively had a very similar win percentage to Ryan's teams, but that didn't stop Seaver from putting up a much better winning percentage, no?


The 'he played on bad teams' argument can only take you so far. At some point you're going to need to realize that Ryan was very beatable, often because he walked so many guys, fielded his position poorly, and on many occasions was knocked out of games early.

 

[gvsulaker82]

Nolan ryan should be included in this poll. Seven no hitters is unreal. If clemens didnt use PEDS I would have went with him. As it is I would say randy johnson or greg maddux.

 

[Mondo Jay]

Maddux is the best pitcher I ever personally saw. He defines the word "pitcher" for me. An artist on the mound.

 

[gvsulaker82]

But a no-hitter is just 1 game. I'd rather have my pitcher have a great season than a single epic game.

For a guy who played 25 years, just 3x did he finish in the top 10 in the majors in ERA, with just 2x in the top 5. I agree that longevity is a skill and adds career value, but you gotta do better than a couple of great seasons to be in the conversation for best ever.

There was an article I read a while back (I think a Rob Neyer article) that pointed out that if you were to look at each seasons in Ryan's career, he was outperformed by a teammate in the majority of those seasons (whether it be Tanana, Mike Scott, Kevin Brown, etc). A guy who's a top 10 pitcher ever should be the best pitcher on the majority of his teams, unless he's playing with another legend.

Yet in the 30 years he pitched he still finished with a 3.2 era which is very good. i would definitely rank him in the top ten, he should have been a choice on the poll.