Best Second Baseman of all time

[navamind]

Their career stats offensively are virtually a wash. The main difference is that Utley has been much better defensively overall throughout their careers.

There's also base running and avoiding double plays.

I can see Cano finishing with a considerably better career. But I don't think he'll ever top Utley's peak.

 

[steveringo]

3 votes for Joe Morgan, but nothing for Eddie Collins.

Very odd...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Very odd...

at least Joe morgan deserves it... How about Jackie Robinson, charlie Gehringer and other getting 6 overal votes..

Thats a shame!!!

 

[obxyankeefan]

See I disagree with you on Morgan. I would say it is close between Hornsby and Collins, with Lajoie and Gehringer a distant third and fourth.

Robinson gets votes because of the color barrier, and that is why I listed him.
Other is the early run for Alomar.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

See I disagree with you on Morgan. I would say it is close between Hornsby and Collins, with Lajoie and Gehringer a distant third and fourth.

Robinson gets votes because of the color barrier, and that is why I listed him.
Other is the early run for Alomar.

The reason i don't include lajoie into the discussion is because he was too similar to collins, played around the same time... But collins was better in everything... So it is clear collins over lajoie...

I just have a hard deciding between Morgan, Collins and hornsby... Its the power(hornsby) vs the speed(collins and Morgan), and then the generational difference between Morgan vs Collins and Hornsby...

Gehringer was great but he was nowhere compared to the other 3...

 

[broncosmitty]

Lajoie's 1901 season was one helluva start for the AL.

Just ridiculous!

I know The Mechanical Man often hit third, but he's the templet for what Id want in a #2 hitter. Plus, his defense is up there.

Im still good with my Hornsby pick.

 

[obxyankeefan]

The reason i don't include lajoie into the discussion is because he was too similar to collins, played around the same time... But collins was better in everything... So it is clear collins over lajoie...

I just have a hard deciding between Morgan, Collins and hornsby... Its the power(hornsby) vs the speed(collins and Morgan), and then the generational difference between Morgan vs Collins and Hornsby...

Gehringer was great but he was nowhere compared to the other 3...

Milk look at these four lines. They are career numbers games hR. SB. OPS+ SLASH and WAR

Player 1. 2379 210 474 116 300/371/443/814 66.8

Player 2 2390 244 143 117 276/363/426/789 74.9

Player 3 2640 268 689 132 271/392/427/819 100.3

Player 4. 2323 184 181 124 320/404/480/884. 80.6

 

[obxyankeefan]

Those numbers are taking defense out of the equation, But Morgan is not that much better than the other three.

Bronco, Hornsby is the correct answer IMO. It just has always seemed to me that the two Tigers don't get the respect they deserve in this discussion.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Milk look at these four lines. They are career numbers games hR. SB. OPS+ SLASH and WAR

Player 1. 2379 210 474 116 300/371/443/814 66.8

Player 2 2390 244 143 117 276/363/426/789 74.9

Player 3 2640 268 689 132 271/392/427/819 100.3

Player 4. 2323 184 181 124 320/404/480/884. 80.6

Just from the numbers show above I would rank the players(best to worst)
1. Player 3
2. Player 1
3. Player 4
4. Player 2

But I will tell you this, when players are not HR hitters, I don't focus on power Stats...

And that's what makes it so hard for me to compare a power hitter to a non power hitter...

 

[Indrid Cold]

Went with Hornsby even though he was dominating a non-integrated and possibly weak NL and there are some questions about his defense. That bat was just too much, and I suspect his defense couldn't have been that awful given that he was a starting SS for a while before shifting to 2B.

 

[Wazmankg]

It's tough to compare eras, pre-integration and all of that, but I think this one is easy. Just look at what Hornsby did against his peers. He led the league in OPS+ 12 times ... slugging, BA and OBP 7-10 times. He won 2 triple crowns. Has there ever been another 2nd baseman who came close to that sort of dominance, and not just over others playing 2nd, but everyone in the league ? Even if he was a complete butcher in the field his offensive output alone puts him over the top easily.

 

[Nosferatu]

I went homer and voted Rodney Cline, but the obvious answer is Hornsby. Bobby Grich does not belong on the list, he was a decent player who had some pop in his bat but to leave off Alomar, Sandberg and Kent in favor of Grich is wrong IMO. I'm a little surprised Gehringer hasn't received more votes.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It's tough to compare eras, pre-integration and all of that, but I think this one is easy. Just look at what Hornsby did against his peers. He led the league in OPS+ 12 times ... slugging, BA and OBP 7-10 times. He won 2 triple crowns. Has there ever been another 2nd baseman who came close to that sort of dominance, and not just over others playing 2nd, but everyone in the league ? Even if he was a complete butcher in the field his offensive output alone puts him over the top easily.

The one thing I realized with pre-integration baseball, the elite players would be elite no matter what... But there numbers are bolstered by the mediocrity elsewhere... I am looking at player stats compared to league stats, and the elite players back then were so much better than the rest of the league, and more so than Post integration baseball...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I went homer and voted Rodney Cline, but the obvious answer is Hornsby. Bobby Grich does not belong on the list, he was a decent player who had some pop in his bat but to leave off Alomar, Sandberg and Kent in favor of Grich is wrong IMO. I'm a little surprised Gehringer hasn't received more votes.

Why does this surprise you?? especially if eddie Collins did not get one vote... Collins IMO is clearly better than gehringer... The difference, is that Collins is an ideal lead off hitter, and Gehringer is an ideal #2 hitter... I prefer lead off hitters over #2 hitters...

 

[Nosferatu]

Why does this surprise you?? especially if eddie Collins did not get one vote... Collins IMO is clearly better than gehringer... The difference, is that Collins is an elite lead off hitter, and Gehringer is an elite #2 hitter... I prefer elite lead off hitters over elite #2 hitters...

I'm sorry, I will change my opinion to make it the same as yours, sorry for the confusion...

 

[StanMarsh51]

I went homer and voted Rodney Cline, but the obvious answer is Hornsby. Bobby Grich does not belong on the list, he was a decent player who had some pop in his bat but to leave off Alomar, Sandberg and Kent in favor of Grich is wrong IMO. I'm a little surprised Gehringer hasn't received more votes.

FWIW, Grich has a better career OPS+ and WAR than Alomar, Sandberg and Kent. I'd say he was better than decent.

 

[Nosferatu]

FWIW, Grich has a better career OPS+ and WAR than Alomar, Sandberg and Kent. I'd say he was better than decent.

162 Game Averages.

A .285 AVG .344 OBP 21 HR's 79 RBI's 26 SB's
B .266 AVG .371 OBP 18 HR's 70 RBI's 8 SB's
C .300 AVG .371 OBP 14 HR's 77 RBI's 32 SB's
D .290 AVG .356 OBP 27 HR's 107 RBI's 7 SB's

How would you rank these players 1-4?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

162 Game Averages.

A .285 AVG .344 OBP 21 HR's 79 RBI's 26 SB's
B .266 AVG .371 OBP 18 HR's 70 RBI's 8 SB's
C .300 AVG .371 OBP 14 HR's 77 RBI's 32 SB's
D .290 AVG .356 OBP 27 HR's 107 RBI's 7 SB's

How would you rank these players 1-4?

C over A, D over B...

With the given statistics I would probably go(best to worst)
1. D
2. C
3. A
4. B

 

[Nosferatu]

C over A, D over B...

With the given statistics I would probably go(best to worst)
1. D
2. C
3. A
4. B

A = Sandberg
B = Grich
C = Alomar
D = Kent

 

[StanMarsh51]

162 Game Averages.

A .285 AVG .344 OBP 21 HR's 79 RBI's 26 SB's
B .266 AVG .371 OBP 18 HR's 70 RBI's 8 SB's
C .300 AVG .371 OBP 14 HR's 77 RBI's 32 SB's
D .290 AVG .356 OBP 27 HR's 107 RBI's 7 SB's

How would you rank these players 1-4?

Need more info, such as whether each played in a hitter friendly or pitcher friendly era.