best hitters of all time

[SwampHumpy]

Maaaaaaybe....but you were picking him first on your all time team? So I guess I can have Babe Ruth, and calsnow can have Willie Mays?

Are you in a fantasy league? Open for any new owners?

no time for fantasy leagues. I'm just saying that the guy deserves his due. When it was clutch time, when you needed that base hit or extra base hit, I'd take Mattingly over most others. I'd take him over Ruth. Maybe not necessarily over Mays, you got me there. I just liked the way Mattingly played the game.

 

[tzill]

I would assume so, since A-Rod has been playing 7 years longer.

and yet is only 4 years older....

 

[tzill]

The problem with WAR tzill is it's cumulative. Rewards longevity, which is fine, but then you can't include a Sandy Koufax on a list of all time great pitchers.

Indeed. It's why Gehrig isn't rated higher. I think longevity has a lot to do with being the best. If Barry could've hung on two more years, he'd have crushed Ruth.

 

[tzill]

I can't believe no one mentioned Don " Donnie Baseball" Mattingly. I'm not a Yankees fan, but if I was starting an All-Time Team, he would be my first pick. I remember watching him give pitchers absolute hell and foul off 12 - 15pitches like it was nothing before they would give up and throw the pitch he wanted to drive. There haven't been many like him since.

I'd give you the first pick and take the next two: Ruth and Bonds.

My team would KILL yours.

 

[guitarmy21b]

and yet is only 4 years older....

So your argument has went from offensive production, to oWAR, to who has higher career totals, to who came into the league earlier. The fact is Pujols's numbers are better than A-Rods for how long he's been playing, no matter how you try to spin it.

 

[msgkings322]

Indeed. It's why Gehrig isn't rated higher. I think longevity has a lot to do with being the best. If Barry could've hung on two more years, he'd have crushed Ruth.

Barry couldn't have hung on even as long as he did, without PEDs. Nor Palmeiro, Sosa, etc. So for the purpose of this (subjective) chat, IMO longevity isn't as important as actual impact. Who would you never have gone to the beer line to miss their ABs?

And again, WAR has a Koufax/Coveleski problem.

 

[msgkings322]

no time for fantasy leagues. I'm just saying that the guy deserves his due. When it was clutch time, when you needed that base hit or extra base hit, I'd take Mattingly over most others. I'd take him over Ruth. Maybe not necessarily over Mays, you got me there. I just liked the way Mattingly played the game.

Mattingly was a nice hitter, had a couple of MVP type years. But that bolded statement is just silly.

 

[calsnowskier]

no time for fantasy leagues. I'm just saying that the guy deserves his due. When it was clutch time, when you needed that base hit or extra base hit, I'd take Mattingly over most others. I'd take him over Ruth. Maybe not necessarily over Mays, you got me there. I just liked the way Mattingly played the game.

Mattingly was a good player in his generation. But he does not belong anywhere near a discussion about best-evers. He is not even in a discussion for HOF. He gets a seat at the discussion table for the Hall of Very Good, and that is about the extent.

To Even mention his name in the same PARAGRAPH as the Bambino is akin to pissing on his grave and beating his heirs.

You can be a fan of a guy (heck, almost everyone on this board LOVES Will Clark, but we are all quite realistic about his place in the historical hierarchy), but dont go all coo coo for cocoa puffs on us.

 

[tzill]

So your argument has went from offensive production, to oWAR, to who has higher career totals, to who came into the league earlier. The fact is Pujols's numbers are better than A-Rods for how long he's been playing, no matter how you try to spin it.

Actually, no: let me walk you through it since you're throwing a bunch of shit against the wall to see if it sticks.

1. oWAR is a much better measure of offensive production than Avg, HR or RBI...or G-d forbid the SSS playoff versions of same.
2. oWAR is offensive production, there was no "switch."
3. oWAR is a cumulative stat, thus, when measuring the best offensive players (which I admit that I expanded from "best hitter" which is nebulous unless you define the term) oWAR is a career total stat.
4. YOU brought up that ARod has been playing 7 more years than Poo-Poo. Actually he's really only played 5 more seasons as the first two (when ARod was still a teenager) only represent about 200 ABs...essentially cups of coffee. So we're really looking at 16 seasons for ARod (age 20-35) and 11 seasons for Poopoo (age 21-31). ARod has 107.1 oWAR, Poo has 77.5. To match ARods output at the same age, Poo would need 29.6 oWAR in the next four years, which is THEORETICALLY possible, but quite unlikely as Poo is past 30 and only had 4.5 oWAR this year (when he was healthy all year). Even if he were to put up 5.0 oWAR for the next four years, he'd STILL be 2 years behind ARod at 35. Apples to apples.
5. Poo has played 11 full years and has 77.5 oWAR; ARod's 11 first full years (again, excluding his two teenage years where he didn't play regularly) he put up 81.1 oWAR.

So, no, Poopoo's numbers aren't "better for how long he's been playing."

You can like Poo more, and you can believe that he'll catch ARod -- that's your right. But if you're going to come on THIS board and spew old school stats and SSS, you're gonna get jacked up.

MY argument never varied. I'll sum it up again: ARod has already put up more offensive production than Poo is like to finish with. Moreover, ARod probably has 3 more years left and could very well end up with 120+ oWAR when it's all said and done.

ARod is a better hitter and it's by quite a bit.

 

[tzill]

Barry couldn't have hung on even as long as he did, without PEDs. Nor Palmeiro, Sosa, etc. So for the purpose of this (subjective) chat, IMO longevity isn't as important as actual impact. Who would you never have gone to the beer line to miss their ABs?

And again, WAR has a Koufax/Coveleski problem.

All eras in baseball had their plusses and minuses. If Ruth had to play against the best players in the world, who trained year round, and rarely saw the same pitcher in the same game more than three times, and had media following him around every day all day and his personal life splattered on the news nightly -- who the fuck knows if he could've handled it and dominated the game? Maybe so, maybe no.

Instead, he got 5 and sometimes 6 ABs off of mediocre white guys who sold insurance during the offseason. How much did PEDs help Bonds vs. how much the other factors helped Ruth....pure conjecture.

If longevity isn't important to you...then (as Harbaugh says) so be it. I think it's important.

 

[msgkings322]

All eras in baseball had their plusses and minuses. If Ruth had to play against the best players in the world, who trained year round, and rarely saw the same pitcher in the same game more than three times, and had media following him around every day all day and his personal life splattered on the news nightly -- who the fuck knows if he could've handled it and dominated the game? Maybe so, maybe no.

Instead, he got 5 and sometimes 6 ABs off of mediocre white guys who sold insurance during the offseason. How much did PEDs help Bonds vs. how much the other factors helped Ruth....pure conjecture.

If longevity isn't important to you...then (as Harbaugh says) so be it. I think it's important.

It's plenty important to me for overall evaluation, but this random discussion was 'best hitters ever' and while you shouldn't include a guy who had one or two good years only, you shouldn't necessarily include a guy like Rose who has gaudy stats primarily from just being there a long time. He wasn't feared as some awesome hitter, he just hung around long enough to hit a shitload of singles.

For the HOF for example, longevity is pretty important. But even then there are exceptions (Koufax, Puckett, etc.)

Great point about Ruth, I agree 100% you can't compare eras exactly. I bet if Ruth were playing today, he'd be a Pujols-level hitter, not "The Babe".

 

[tzill]

It's plenty important to me for overall evaluation, but this random discussion was 'best hitters ever' and while you shouldn't include a guy who had one or two good years only, you shouldn't necessarily include a guy like Rose who has gaudy stats primarily from just being there a long time. He wasn't feared as some awesome hitter, he just hung around long enough to hit a shitload of singles.

For the HOF for example, longevity is pretty important. But even then there are exceptions (Koufax, Puckett, etc.)

Great point about Ruth, I agree 100% you can't compare eras exactly. I bet if Ruth were playing today, he'd be a Pujols-level hitter, not "The Babe".

Eh, who fucking knows...discussions like that give me a headache. Anyway, re: longevity -- I think being a "great hitter" means that you've "hung around a while" and piled up stats. But we can disagree.

:arg:

 

[BrawlinHawkeye]

PETE ROSE !!!!

 

[msgkings322]

Eh, who fucking knows...discussions like that give me a headache. Anyway, re: longevity -- I think being a "great hitter" means that you've "hung around a while" and piled up stats. But we can disagree.

:arg:

To me they are part of the fun...my headache kicks in acfter going round and round for too long, however, as the arguments are 'unwinnable'.

And yes, 'great hitter' can mean a lot of different things.

 

[Heathbar012]

It's plenty important to me for overall evaluation, but this random discussion was 'best hitters ever' and while you shouldn't include a guy who had one or two good years only, you shouldn't necessarily include a guy like Rose who has gaudy stats primarily from just being there a long time. He wasn't feared as some awesome hitter, he just hung around long enough to hit a shitload of singles.

For the HOF for example, longevity is pretty important. But even then there are exceptions (Koufax, Puckett, etc.)

Great point about Ruth, I agree 100% you can't compare eras exactly. I bet if Ruth were playing today, he'd be a Pujols-level hitter, not "The Babe".

I get what you're saying, but come on. In order to get 4,000 hits, a guy has to get 200 in 20 straight seasons. That's insane good, and it still wouldn't be better than Rose. When you take into account that he was doing it during an era with some especially amazing pitchers (one of which they lowered the mound because of) and in the NL, he can't simply be dismissed as a guy that hung around and hit a lot of singles.

This is what makes Ichiro so amazing, too. Had he started his professional career in America, he would be the only player with any chance at even sniffing Rose's accomplishments with the bat. I'll give you Rickey Henderson as a better offensive player. I was off-base with my earlier assessment, but as far as pure hitting, few are better. Some of the power hitters have to rank above them, for obvious reasons, but Pete and Ichiro certainly belong in the discussion.

 

[msgkings322]

I get what you're saying, but come on. In order to get 4,000 hits, a guy has to get 200 in 20 straight seasons. That's insane good, and it still wouldn't be better than Rose. When you take into account that he was doing it during an era with some especially amazing pitchers (one of which they lowered the mound because of) and in the NL, he can't simply be dismissed as a guy that hung around and hit a lot of singles.

This is what makes Ichiro so amazing, too. Had he started his professional career in America, he would be the only player with any chance at even sniffing Rose's accomplishments with the bat. I'll give you Rickey Henderson as a better offensive player. I was off-base with my earlier assessment, but as far as pure hitting, few are better. Some of the power hitters have to rank above them, for obvious reasons, but Pete and Ichiro certainly belong in the discussion.

Agreed. I'll put them in my '8-10 others' category.

 

[SF11704]

Being the old bastard that I am - I have to go with Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams and one of my favorite all time hitter was Stan the Man Musial - that man could flat out hit

 

[msgkings322]

Being the old bastard that I am - I have to go with Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams and one of my favorite all time hitter was Stan the Man Musial - that man could flat out hit

Big time, I belatedly added him to my second tier.

No Babe Ruth for you?

 

[Voltaire26]

"Wahoo Sam" Crawford, needs some kind of mention. Career Leader in Triples.

 

[SF11704]

Ruth was a 1st tier hitter - but I never saw him - I was just relating to players I actually watched play - Williams was ending his career but he was still a player to be dealt with. I saw Mays mature as a hitter and that was great to experience. Saw him as a rookie and watched him playout his career. Clemente would have been a great player I believe if the circumstances had been different. I grew up with the big three in NY. We had the on-going arguments about Willie, Mickey and the Duke. Been a Giant fan for close to 60 years now but I still wonder what Mantle's career would have been like if he had a good set of wheels. .