Ben Simmons-Joel Embiid Duo

[knowyourenemy]

He resigned because they were basically demoting him by taking away responsibilities. That's why I was saying "pushed out" in previous posts. Just semantics really.

Agreed. I understand what you were trying to say. The fact remains that Hinkie being pushed out does not mean he didn't do a good job. It also doesn't mean that he didn't leave the 76ers in significantly better shape than he found them.

 

[Sparhawk]

Again, if you're going to claim Hinkie left the team in great shape with nobody of worth in the backcourt, this argument doesn't fit.

Why the love and admiration for Hinkie anyway? The guy was basically forced out.

Again, you have to define great shape. The argument fits if we're looking at long term success.

Hinkie gamed the system to compile a huge number of assets. However, in doing so, he may have burned bridges with other teams and possibly with the league in how it made them look with purposeful tanking. For what he was hired to do, I would state that Hinkie did a masterful job in acquiring assets and leaving the team in better shape than when he found it.

The Colangelos essentially inherited these assets and so far, have down a competent job in not squandering them.

 

[flyerhawk]

To my eye, the Lakers are at least a year ahead of the Sixers' schedule.

No one way to know that. Both teams are too dependent on their top pick turning into something to know who is ahead of the other.

The Lakers are slightly more balanced but have huge holes and need a bunch of players to step just like the Sixers do.

 

[Sparhawk]

To my eye, the Lakers are at least a year ahead of the Sixers' schedule.

If the Lakers retain their 2017 pick at 1-3, then yes.
If that pick goes to the Sixers at 4-10, then no.

 

[flyerhawk]

Again, if you're going to claim Hinkie left the team in great shape with nobody of worth in the backcourt, this argument doesn't fit.

He left the team in great shape as they just drafted the No. 1 overall player in the 2016 draft and have a chance to have a high lottery pick in both of the next two seasons. They have a Croatian player who is effectively a rookie this year and a couple of big men that could turn into something and can either be core players or traded to get more assets.

From a pure asset building perspective, Hinkie did a great job. Now whether he drafted the best players or not remains to be seen.

That doesn't mean he left the team ready to compete for the playoffs. They clearly aren't there yet.

 

[Taddy Mason]

The ghost of Greg Oden's career agrees with you. Of course there is no way to know whether Embiid will be like Oden but it is a very real possibility.

If nothing else, Embiid at least provided us with some Twitter whimsy, which Oden never did.

 

[Taddy Mason]

My point is that Hinkie's fingerprints are not a good thing. He gave you 3 centers and and forward (Saric) that will sit behind Simmons. The backcourt Hinkie left was atrocious.

The backcourt was always a TBD later, I feel the majority of sixer fans are happy with the process. We were also happy with Colangelo's drafting this year. There was much talk about packaging picks and players for garbage in return. Thankfully, it didn't happen. And most teams are always looking out for that ideal 2. Shit, the Kings tried drafting one in the top 10 3 years in a row or so.

 

[tlance]

No thanks on Okafor. Lakers got the better player for their system in Russell, and a solid center in Zubac this summer. Russell/Clarkson/Ingram/Randle/Zubac is a great core, with vets sprinkled around at each position for leadership and depth.

I don't get the love affair for Okafor. He's a decent offensive player in the post, but that's it. Terrible defender, no range, cement-footed. If Embiid can get on the floor, Okafor is a backup. There are clear reasons that teams seem to want Noel more than Okafor. Rim protection and athleticism.

I agree the Lakers made the right choice. Before the draft, however, just about ever projection had Okafor going 2 to LA, and Russell 3 to Philly.

 

[flyerhawk]

I agree the Lakers made the right choice. Before the draft, however, just about ever projection had Okafor going 2 to LA, and Russell 3 to Philly.

The funny thing is the Sixers got the 2nd pick they would have taken Russell and the Lakers would have taken Okafor. SO Shopson's comment about no thanks on Okafor ignores that there was a big risk drop after Okafor. Sure Porzingas looks pretty good so far he came with a lot of question marks. The Lakers would have almost certainly taken Okafor.

I also think it is far from a sure thing that Okafor is worse than Porzingas. They had about the same PER.

 

[tlance]

The funny thing is the Sixers got the 2nd pick they would have taken Russell and the Lakers would have taken Okafor. SO Shopson's comment about no thanks on Okafor ignores that there was a big risk drop after Okafor. Sure Porzingas looks pretty good so far he came with a lot of question marks. The Lakers would have almost certainly taken Okafor.

I also think it is far from a sure thing that Okafor is worse than Porzingas. They had about the same PER.

The difference comes on the defensive end though. I just don't see Okafor ever being a plus defender. Porzingas could end up being quite good there.

 

[flyerhawk]

The difference comes on the defensive end though. I just don't see Okafor ever being a plus defender. Porzingas could end up being quite good there.

Could be. IMO, defense is mostly about willingness and commitment to it. Not sure I'm willing to say that a 20 year will never develop that.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Could be. IMO, defense is mostly about willingness and commitment to it. Not sure I'm willing to say that a 20 year will never develop that.

That's certainly a part of it, but at the moment his situational awareness and athleticism point to his ceiling being an average defender at best. One on one I think he should be able to hold his own, but pick and roll or help from the weak side I think he'll always be a bit lacking.

 

[flyerhawk]

That's certainly a part of it, but at the moment his situational awareness and athleticism point to his ceiling being an average defender at best. One on one I think he should be able to hold his own, but pick and roll or help from the weak side I think he'll always be a bit lacking.

I think that Okafor needs the right situation. With the right team and coach they could really leverage him. Kinda like how Green is in almost the perfect situation. Green is a top flight player with the Warriors. But he could easily be lost in the wash on a team with a different style asking him to play a different position.

Having said that, it's not like every all star plays great defense. Some of them barely play any defense.

 

[shopson67]

I agree the Lakers made the right choice. Before the draft, however, just about ever projection had Okafor going 2 to LA, and Russell 3 to Philly.

True, and I was buying into the idea of Okafor. Glad the Lakers went the route they did though. They have drafted quite well in recent years (Randle, Clarkson, Russell, and Nance in addition to Ingram and Zubac this summer), just need to add a SG prospect at some point (Clarkson is more of a combo guard).

 

[shopson67]

If the Lakers retain their 2017 pick at 1-3, then yes.
If that pick goes to the Sixers at 4-10, then no.

That doesn't make any sense, as that is in the future. I'm talking status today.

 

[shopson67]

No one way to know that. Both teams are too dependent on their top pick turning into something to know who is ahead of the other.

The Lakers are slightly more balanced but have huge holes and need a bunch of players to step just like the Sixers do.

I'm quite capable of knowing what things look like to me, lol.

What huge holes?

PG: D'Angelo Russell, Jose Calderon, Marcelo Huertas
SG: Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams, Nick Young (hopefully waived/traded soon)
SF: Brandon Ingram, Luol Deng, Anthony Brown
PF: Julius Randle, Larry Nance Jr
C: Timofey Mozgov, Ivica Zubac, Tarik Black

Solid balance of young up-and-comers with vet depth. Some positional flexibility as well, with Clarkson and Lou able to play PG, Ingram could play SG, Deng can play stretch PF, etc. I'd like to see Young gone ASAP, and a SG and PF added to balance things out. Lakers usually leave a roster spot open though, so it's probably one or the other.

 

[flyerhawk]

I'm quite capable of knowing what things look like to me, lol.

What huge holes?

PG: D'Angelo Russell, Jose Calderon, Marcelo Huertas
SG: Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams, Nick Young (hopefully waived/traded soon)
SF: Brandon Ingram, Luol Deng, Anthony Brown
PF: Julius Randle, Larry Nance Jr
C: Timofey Mozgov, Ivica Zubac, Tarik Black

Solid balance of young up-and-comers with vet depth. Some positional flexibility as well, with Clarkson and Lou able to play PG, Ingram could play SG, Deng can play stretch PF, etc. I'd like to see Young gone ASAP, and a SG and PF added to balance things out. Lakers usually leave a roster spot open though, so it's probably one or the other.

PG: Russell needs to step up but it's his second year so you hope that he does.
SG: Clarkson is a below average player. Not much beyond that
SF: Ingram is a rookie. Deng is a dinosaur with a lot of tread on the tire.
PF: I like what you have here but it needs to develop.
C: Mozgov is a league average C. Zubac has to step up.

Ultimately the Lakers problems are similar to the Sixers problems. Lack of effective perimeter shooting. Maybe Ingram seamlessly makes the adjust from college to the pros but that is unlikely. So that leaves the Lakers with no perimeter threat, much like the Sixers.

Before you get your shorts twisted up trying to tell me how much better the Lakers are than the Sixers, don't waste your breath. If you want to think they are much better because they lost a relic superstar and gained a wildly overpaid C, good for you. I hope you guys win 35 games. But the Lakers, like the Sixers, need to have some young kids really develop. The Lakers have a slight advantage that Russell and Randle have experience already whereas 3 of the Sixers young players are effective rookies this year but they still need to show they can play at the NBA level.

Sixer and Laker fans have reason to be optimistic but they also need to realize those teams need a number of question marks to be answered in the positive.

 

[Sparhawk]

That doesn't make any sense, as that is in the future. I'm talking status today.

It was your statement that the Lakers were a year ahead of the Sixers and their schedule.
Are the Sixers winning a ring this year? No.
Lakers? No.
If you are stating that the Lakers are better (in terms of wins this year), then sure, nobody argues that.

You do realize it would have been in the Lakers best interests to tank this year.
Now they're stuck overpaying for free agents and chasing a playoff bubble spot.
Short term 'success' at the cost of long term potential, which is exactly where the Sixers were prior to Hinkie.

 

[shopson67]

It was your statement that the Lakers were a year ahead of the Sixers and their schedule.
Are the Sixers winning a ring this year? No.
Lakers? No.
If you are stating that the Lakers are better (in terms of wins this year), then sure, nobody argues that.

You do realize it would have been in the Lakers best interests to tank this year.
Now they're stuck overpaying for free agents and chasing a playoff bubble spot.
Short term 'success' at the cost of long term potential, which is exactly where the Sixers were prior to Hinkie.

You are misreading the Lakers situation. They are growing as a young team and a young coach with some added veteran free agent support. The Lakers didn't chase any high priced free agents (they would have made exceptions for Durant or Whiteside, but that was it and was moot anyway). The Lakers already have a full starting lineup of 1st round prospect talent (Zubac slipped as he didn't want to be a stash player, and Clarkson would be a 1st rounder if that draft were re-picked today); are they supposed to tank to add rookie depth?

The young talent has to be on the floor learning together, not eternally tanking to add another piece. If the Lakers luck out and retain their pick via some lottery magic this season, so be it. If not, they get their 1st rounder next year instead. It may seem like the Lakers overpaid for free agents, but if Deng and Mozgov had been signed a year earlier and received cap adjusted salaries of $13M and $11M respectively, nobody would bat an eye.

 

[shopson67]

PG: Russell needs to step up but it's his second year so you hope that he does.
SG: Clarkson is a below average player. Not much beyond that
SF: Ingram is a rookie. Deng is a dinosaur with a lot of tread on the tire.
PF: I like what you have here but it needs to develop.
C: Mozgov is a league average C. Zubac has to step up.

Ultimately the Lakers problems are similar to the Sixers problems. Lack of effective perimeter shooting. Maybe Ingram seamlessly makes the adjust from college to the pros but that is unlikely. So that leaves the Lakers with no perimeter threat, much like the Sixers.

Before you get your shorts twisted up trying to tell me how much better the Lakers are than the Sixers, don't waste your breath. If you want to think they are much better because they lost a relic superstar and gained a wildly overpaid C, good for you. I hope you guys win 35 games. But the Lakers, like the Sixers, need to have some young kids really develop. The Lakers have a slight advantage that Russell and Randle have experience already whereas 3 of the Sixers young players are effective rookies this year but they still need to show they can play at the NBA level.

Sixer and Laker fans have reason to be optimistic but they also need to realize those teams need a number of question marks to be answered in the positive.

Clarkson was one of the more desirable SG free agents this year. Lou Williams is not far removed from winning 6th man of the year. You're undervaluing both, but you've no reason to be following the Lakers closely, just as I don't with the Sixers. I was upset when the Lakers didn't pursue Covington prior to the Sixers getting him, but with Ingram now on the roster and Deng to be a mentor, that's water under the bridge.