Babe Ruth or Bernie Williams (seriously)

[Omar 382]

Well, he was obviously a better athlete....The Babe was picked up at the local pub and driven to the game, his best playing condition, he still looked like he ate Pablo Sandoval

As far as playing in a better "Hitters' era", i think thats mostly attributable to PED's and not really worse pitching (and dont get me wrong, Bernie could have easily been on PED's)....

Wasnt the raising of the mound also supposed to play in the pitchers' advantage?

Exactly my point. Before the 1970s or so, people thought working out made you a worse player because of added weight. If Ruth played today, is it possible he could be given nicotine gum instead of cigars, a personal trainer with a diet regimen instead of having no advice or accountability, and Prozac instead of alcohol to help his depression?

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Pitchers couldn't/didn't use PEDs?

And without a doubt

Ill never forget the interview with the guy that founded Balco

They asked him if he believes in an even playing field, and his response will always stick with me

"Oh, it is an even playing field, they are all on something"

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Victor Conte, that was his name

 

[Wamu]

I voted for Babe Ruth. Not only was he a power hitter he also pitched 29 scoreless innings in the World Series, a record that stood for 42 years. He was 94-46 w/ an ERA of 2.27 & only gave up 10 HR's in 1,221 innings. He pitched 9 shutouts for the Red Sox in 1916. A record that stood until '78 when Ron Guidry tied it.

 

[Omar 382]

And without a doubt

Ill never forget the interview with the guy that founded Balco

They asked him if he believes in an even playing field, and his response will always stick with me

"Oh, it is an even playing field, they are all on something"

Yeah, but that's another topic for another thread. Players have been cheating and trying to gain an unfair advantage since baseball's inception. Relaying signs, intimidating umpires, doctoring baseballs, and even PEDs were used (albeit not effective ones nor was the usage widespread) as far back as 1889. It's only because of health reasons (and a possible good narrative) that modern-day players are getting so much heat. For example, do you hate Don Sutton? When asked if he doctored a baseball with a foreign substance, he replied:

"Not true at all. Vaseline is manufactured right here in the United States."

What if Bonds joked and said the steroid he used was made in America?

 

[Omar 382]

I voted for Babe Ruth. Not only was he a power hitter he also pitched 29 scoreless innings in the World Series, a record that stood for 42 years. He was 94-46 w/ an ERA of 2.27 & only gave up 10 HR's in 1,221 innings. He pitched 9 shutouts for the Red Sox in 1916. A record that stood until '78 when Ron Guidry tied it.

So if Ruth never pitched, you still think he's far better, right?

 

[Indrid Cold]

Well, he was obviously a better athlete....The Babe was picked up at the local pub and driven to the game, his best playing condition, he still looked like he ate Pablo Sandoval

As far as playing in a better "Hitters' era", i think thats mostly attributable to PED's and not really worse pitching (and dont get me wrong, Bernie could have easily been on PED's)....

Wasnt the raising of the mound also supposed to play in the pitchers' advantage?

It's not at all true that Babe was always a fat slob...he was quite trim with the Red Sox. Babe slowly gained weight with the Yanks and was pretty blobby by 1925, but started going to a gym with a personal trainer (Artie McGovern, the owner) the next offseason and trimmed down somewhat until he was pushing 40.

 

[Wamu]

So if Ruth never pitched, you still think he's far better, right?

Yes. To this day I still think Ruth is 1 of the greatest MLBers of all time. Bernie had a solid career but he's not an all time great.

 

[Psych-Ward]

Bernie Who????

 

[Cedrique]

I actually recently heard that Babe Ruth batted against the Village People. That might change things...

I read that too, but it was not from a reputable news outlet-just some jerkoff on the Phillies Board. So while it may be true, sometimes you have to consider the source.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Basically, I think that the safest thing to do is to compare a player to his contemporaries. Sure, scouting was haphazard in Babe's day and players were excluded because of their color, but pro football and basketball were also jokes compared to MLB and were not siphoning off so many of the best athletes.
Babe was absolutely dominant in his era while Bernie was merely very good to excellent, so I say Ruth was better...and then there's the matter of him also being an excellent pitcher.

BTW, anybody who points to Bernie's postseason record to boost him up must be totally unaware of the called shot against the Cubbies ('32) and Babe TWICE hitting 3 HRs in a WS game against the Cards ('26 and '28).

 

[Omar 382]

I read that too, but it was not from a reputable news outlet-just some jerkoff on the Phillies Board. So while it may be true, sometimes you have to consider the source.

I trust him. He can make stupid and irrelevent '80s posts, but he knows his baseball. Just go ask him about his thoughts on the Phillies manager (I don't know his name) batting Andres Blanco in the three-hole

 

[Omar 382]

Basically, I think that the safest thing to do is to compare a player to his contemporaries. Sure, scouting was haphazard in Babe's day and players were excluded because of their color, but pro football and basketball were also jokes compared to MLB and were not siphoning off so many of the best athletes.
Babe was absolutely dominant in his era while Bernie was merely very good to excellent, so I say Ruth was better...and then there's the matter of him also being an excellent pitcher.

BTW, anybody who points to Bernie's postseason record to boost him up must be totally unaware of the called shot against the Cubbies ('32) and Babe TWICE hitting 3 HRs in a WS game against the Cards ('26 and '28).

This is where people get lost. Why look at two games, when he had an OPS around 1.000 for his career in the playoffs? I know it's natural for people to look at big singular events, it's human nature, but it can definitely lead to erroneous beliefs. A lot of people think Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher in baseball because he threw 100 MPH, or Stanton is the best hitter in baseball because he can hit baseballs 500 feet sometimes

 

[Cedrique]

I trust him. He can make stupid and irrelevent '80s posts, but he knows his baseball. Just go ask him about his thoughts on the Phillies manager (I don't know his name) batting Andres Blanco in the three-hole

Yeah, didn't get much good information from him. Some incoherent reference to Ferris Beuller and something about moving Blanco to leadoff.

 

[Cedrique]

It's not at all true that Babe was always a fat slob...he was quite trim with the Red Sox. Babe slowly gained weight with the Yanks and was pretty blobby by 1925, but started going to a gym with a personal trainer (Artie McGovern, the owner) the next offseason and trimmed down somewhat until he was pushing 40.View attachment 110728

View attachment 110730

Wow, young Babe was svelte. Definitely not on the roids

I think everyone is used to seeing that one picture of him swinging which was probably late in his career

 

[Indrid Cold]

This is where people get lost. Why look at two games, when he had an OPS around 1.000 for his career in the playoffs? I know it's natural for people to look at big singular events, it's human nature, but it can definitely lead to erroneous beliefs. A lot of people think Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher in baseball because he threw 100 MPH, or Stanton is the best hitter in baseball because he can hit baseballs 500 feet sometimes

I loved Ryan when I was a teenager, but then realized when I got older that he was a stupid pitcher with a great arm until he was well into his 30s. Bill James pointed out astutely that Nolan would treat a SS hitting .200 with no power like he was Lou Gehrig and try to throw him unhittable pitches on the black, maybe making him look really bad but maybe also walking him for no reason...a smart pitcher would have challenged more hitters in the zone with that incredible stuff. Ryan also was poor at pitching from a stretch compared to a windup, so putting guys on with walks hurt him even more. Nolan finally learned how to really pitch at an age when most pitchers were retiring, and was very effective with reduced (but still impressive) stuff as an old guy.
Somebody else already mentioned Babe's stat line in the WS (no need to say playoffs), so I wanted to point out some of the more glorious moments. Something less glorious was Ruth being thrown out attempting to steal to end the '26 WS (with none other than Rogers Hornsby applying the tag).

 

[Indrid Cold]

Oh yeah, he got to be a big hog at the end.

 

[Rex Racer]

Before I head out I want to add that I think it is foolish to think that the best players of the segregation era would have had worse lifetime stats because they would have had to play against minorities. That line of thinking perpetuates a myth that all the minority players were superior to the white ones.

The way I see it the same argument can be made when talking about Josh Gibson and many other ***** League greats. Would they have been as dominant in MLB when facing the best caucasian players of the day?

 

[handicappers]

The ***** league would have destroyed the MLB

 

[Cedrique]

Before I head out I want to add that I think it is foolish to think that the best players of the segregation era would have had worse lifetime stats because they would have had to play against minorities. That line of thinking perpetuates a myth that all the minority players were superior to the white ones.

The way I see it the same argument can be made when talking about Josh Gibson and many other ***** League greats. Would they have been as dominant in MLB when facing the best caucasian players of the day?

Yeah, I don't think it is a matter of saying that minority players were superior but that the talent pool would have been bigger if they were all mixed together back then. But then again, when they did start integrating they also started adding more teams to the leagues, so it would probably even out. And to your point, if the mlb talent pool was small because of excluding minorities, the ***** League had an even smaller pool of talent so some of the stats and accomplishments that occurred in that league were probably inflated relative to what those players would have done if they were integrated into mlb.