Arrowverse: Arrow, Batwoman, Black Lightning, Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, Supergirl, Superman & Lois

[lilchi721]

Is it possible that the real Jay is the guy in the Iron Mask?

 

[OutlawImmortal]

I dont think that is the case at all. Just because a speedster can be in two places at once (reverse
Flash / Harrison in S1) does not mean he can be in two UNIVERSES at once. Also, when Zoom brought "E2 Garrick" back to E2, he dropped his limp body on the floor. He didnt stop being both entities.

I think there are a number of possibilities...

1) we are dealing with an E(x) Garrick SOMEWHERE. The prob with this is that Cisco would not see Zoom when touching Garrick's helmet.

2) Garrick and Zoom are the same, but split. Garrick is the good persona, Zoom is the evil persona. This was hinted at with Trajectory. If Garrick was taking V6 and it drove him crazy, maybe his evil insider broke away and somehow gained a physical form. This theory does not explain the man in the mask, though.

3) E2 Garrick has an identical twin, E2 Zolloman, who is Zoom. Maybe the fact that they are identical leads to Cisco seeing Zoom through Garrick's helmet. The man in the mask is E1 Garrick (with E1 Zolloman being the man in the park), or vice-versa.

I think my theory 2 is probably going to be closest to what we actually see.

#2 seems solid, the fact that Jay was already a speedster could have possibly been the difference between Zoom splitting off and taking his speed force with him, and Trajectory flat out evaporating.

 

[The Q]

Yeah...is the mask guy a third Jay?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah...is the mask guy a third Jay?

I doubt it... or at least I hope not... I hope they bring a new hero into the arrow-verse maybe a teenage billy batson??


That would be so much fun...

 

[The Q]

With the way they've written it, a 3rd jay honestly makes the most sense. But yes....not ideal for us.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I doubt it... or at least I hope not... I hope they bring a new hero into the arrow-verse maybe a teenage billy batson??


That would be so much fun...

Would I be the only one ecstatic about a Shazam Tv show...

 

[TheRangerDude]

I dont think that is the case at all. Just because a speedster can be in two places at once (reverse
Flash / Harrison in S1) does not mean he can be in two UNIVERSES at once. Also, when Zoom brought "E2 Garrick" back to E2, he dropped his limp body on the floor. He didnt stop being both entities.

I think there are a number of possibilities...

1) we are dealing with an E(x) Garrick SOMEWHERE. The prob with this is that Cisco would not see Zoom when touching Garrick's helmet.

2) Garrick and Zoom are the same, but split. Garrick is the good persona, Zoom is the evil persona. This was hinted at with Trajectory. If Garrick was taking V6 and it drove him crazy, maybe his evil insider broke away and somehow gained a physical form. This theory does not explain the man in the mask, though.

3) E2 Garrick has an identical twin, E2 Zolloman, who is Zoom. Maybe the fact that they are identical leads to Cisco seeing Zoom through Garrick's helmet. The man in the mask is E1 Garrick (with E1 Zolloman being the man in the park), or vice-versa.

I think my theory 2 is probably going to be closest to what we actually see.

Here's my new one, Garrick is Zoom, just from E2's future... hence why he is so reluctant to try any of the velocity serums. He has recovered from the effects that made him the more mentally unstable Zoom but also lost his speed. He went back in time to stop himself. That could be pretty wacky. Only thing weird here is Wells knows Garrick from E2 as the flash but perhaps like Wells from E1, he has been stuck back in time for a while.

I still lean to what you have for 3 the most though... although I think it would be better if the guy in the mask is Wally.

 

[calsnowskier]

Here's my new one, Garrick is Zoom, just from E2's future... hence why he is so reluctant to try any of the velocity serums. He has recovered from the effects that made him the more mentally unstable Zoom but also lost his speed. He went back in time to stop himself. That could be pretty wacky. Only thing weird here is Wells knows Garrick from E2 as the flash but perhaps like Wells from E1, he has been stuck back in time for a while.

I still lean to what you have for 3 the most though... although I think it would be better if the guy in the mask is Wally.

While this is certainly possible, it would be a bit of a bait and switch. The man in the mask is clearly white.

 

[TheRangerDude]

While this is certainly possible, it would be a bit of a bait and switch. The man in the mask is clearly white.

This is kind of funny, I have had people in this same thread tell me he is clearly black when mentioning a theory in line with what you had as number 3

You can tell by his hands that the guy in the iron mask is black though. Perhaps a black Jay Garrick? (lol)

 

[The Q]

Zoom being an earth 2 time traveler made sense until he killed himself. Like Eddie thawne he'd have dissapeared on impact.

 

[TheRangerDude]

Zoom being an earth 2 time traveler made sense until he killed himself. Like Eddie thawne he'd have dissapeared on impact.

Not if Zoom killed his future self. This only works if Garrick is future Zoom, not the other way around. Then, he would indeed be killing himself, but if it is himself from the future, it wouldn't effect him, since it hadn't happened on his own timeline yet. He would still be alive, later to come to his senses once the velocity serum wears off, travel back in time, and get stuck trying to reverse some bad things he did.

I still think the twin scenario is the most likely, especially because the existence of a Hunter Zoloman on E1. However, the E2 future thing still works in the context above. Eddie killing himself erased Reverse Flash because Eddie was no longer alive to produce the ancestors who gave birth to Eobard.

 

[The Q]

Not if Zoom killed his future self. This only works if Garrick is future Zoom, not the other way around. Then, he would indeed be killing himself, but if it is himself from the future, it wouldn't effect him, since it hadn't happened on his own timeline yet. He would still be alive, later to come to his senses once the velocity serum wears off, travel back in time, and get stuck trying to reverse some bad things he did.

I still think the twin scenario is the most likely, especially because the existence of a Hunter Zoloman on E1. However, the E2 future thing still works in the context above. Eddie killing himself erased Reverse Flash because Eddie was no longer alive to produce the ancestors who gave birth to Eobard.

True but it seems completely illogical to me that Jay would be the future Zoom.

What made him magically turn good?

And if Zoom is also dying from the affects of the velocity serum, shouldn't the Jay he killed have already known not to keep using it?

 

[The Q]

I agree with you that the Twins thing with the E1 Hunter Zolomon/no E1 Jay Garrick is also a very likely scenario.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

There has to be more to the Eobard thawne story... Unfortunately... Killing eddy was a great episode, but a terrible idea for the actual story... Really opened up some major holes... They have been trying to fix it, with that terrible return of reverse flash episode, and there will be at least one more episode with him since he still has to kill of Barry's mom...

They would have been better off not killing eddy... But they do what they do...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree with you that the Twins thing with the E1 Hunter Zolomon/no E1 Jay Garrick is also a very likely scenario.

I hope not... just a cop out... but sometimes you have to go the easy way out...

 

[The Q]

There has to be more to the Eobard thawne story... Unfortunately... Killing eddy was a great episode, but a terrible idea for the actual story... Really opened up some major holes... They have been trying to fix it, with that terrible return of reverse flash episode, and there will be at least one more episode with him since he still has to kill of Barry's mom...

They would have been better off not killing eddy... But they do what they do...

Killing Eddie was fine.

He was a dick.

But the problems it created for Thawne (Reverse Flash) are an issue.

 

[The Q]

I hope not... just a cop out... but sometimes you have to go the easy way out...

It is. But this is the CW, not exactly known for the most innovative scripts.

They took some major missteps with Smallville as well.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I was just thinking, Twins make no sense... The guy in the mask was afraid of JAY... That would mean that there would be 2 JAYs... if they were twins, JAY 2 would have a different name... And if the guy in the mask is the other twin(form E1), then why would he be calling him Jay and not by the other twins name?? How does he know Barry knows Jay??

 

[TheRangerDude]

True but it seems completely illogical to me that Jay would be the future Zoom.

What made him magically turn good?

And if Zoom is also dying from the affects of the velocity serum, shouldn't the Jay he killed have already known not to keep using it?

Like we saw with the Trajectory episode, the velocity serum makes you faster but it also brings out the evil in you as well (as well as bunch of it will turn your speed lightening blue). It brings out another personality if you will, sort of like what happened with Spiderman's Green Goblin. Recall the scene where she was having a conversation with herself in the lab before she took the serum.

Anyway, he would turn good, simply by getting off the serum as that effect would wear off, presumably. Again, this also explains his fear of the velocity serums and why he doesn't want Barry to take them. Evidently, over time, this is why he lost his speed as well but he has given a couple of reasons for that. First Zoom took it and then it was due to Velocity 6 I think. Actually, now that I think of it, if this theory is correct, both of those reasons could hold true.

To your 2nd point, he does know not to keep taking it... again, that is why he doesn't want Barry to take it. Although, he does take it a couple of times on E1 (to save Cisco and while Barry is on E2) without showing much of a mental struggle. Here, keep in mind though, Jay is(was) dying as well. The idea would be that Jay actually quit using the serum (or maybe just ran out) and became Jay again. He would still be dying and perhaps when he first did this, he still had most of his original speed, so he could travel back in time as a attempt to stop himself. It would just mean that over time, off the serum, it slowly went away.

In a nutshell the time line would be:

1. Well's accelerator blows - Turns Jay into The Flash
2. Jay acts as The Flash for sometime but desires to be faster, then develops the velocity serum
3. Over time, this serum turns him into Zoom
4. Zoom does lots of bad things in E2
5. Zoom runs out of serum or something happens where Jay finds away to escape the grasp of the velocity serum and stops taking it.
6. Jay, still having much of his original speed force travels back in time to what I have as (4) here as an attempt to stop himself(Zoom) from something bad he did. Much like Eobard in S1 though, he gets stuck as his powers start to fade.

One thing that has never really been clear is when specifically did Jay lose his powers. Originally, they said it was when he was battling Zoom on the rooftop and Zoom had him almost defeated but he was sucked through the portal to Earth 1. That doesn't really make sense with the whole velocity serum thing which he now said was how he lost his powers. However, if that is why he lost his powers, and they were already gone when he was sucked in the portal, why would he be fighting Zoom without powers?

I think a Fight Club like theory would have been fun too but I don't see how that works out with Zoom holding a dead Jay. TLDR

 

[TheRangerDude]

I was just thinking, Twins make no sense... The guy in the mask was afraid of JAY... That would mean that there would be 2 JAYs... if they were twins, JAY 2 would have a different name... And if the guy in the mask is the other twin(form E1), then why would he be calling him Jay and not by the other twins name?? How does he know Barry knows Jay??

Well, if you go with the theory that the guy in the Mask is Jay for E1, then he might have simply been communicating his own name. From what I recall, it was never clear why he was communicating the name Jay Garrick. Also, he could be attempting to communicate that the other guy is him from E2 as he, himself might not know of his twin, Zolomon, on E1.