ALL THINGS SUH

[gandydancer]

Might have to go buy a Kindle so I can read all of that. Yowzers!

They got 50" screens these days??

 

[tpaulus_2]

Come on man!!

$2.575m isn't modest cap savings.

Yes it is. The cap is $133 million, so that's only 1.9% of the cap total. Plus, you're assuming we don't sign another player to take his spot once we cut him, so that $2.575 drops by $500,000 to $1 million, depending on who we sign. So am I willing to sacrifice about 1% of our total cap space to keep a guard who has proven, at the very least, to not be a liability? Yes, I'll gladly do that over saving $1.5 to $2 million on a completely unproven player. Like I said, if he's average for two years in a row, then it makes sense to look for other options. Otherwise don't fix what ain't broken for such relatively small financial gain.

That can go a very long way when structured correctly. And the idea would be to develop or draft his replacement, and improve upon his mediocre talent level. Not to go sign a free agent.

If he was of mediocre talent, that would make sense. But he's not, so it doesn't, imo. And if we cut him we're obviously going to sign a free agent to take his roster spot, so that theory doesn't hold up.

If you cut every single one of your dead wood players it wouldn't amount to half the cost standings of cutting Sims.

How so? Sims isn't making some outrageous contract, his cap hit is under $4 million this year. You're telling me that Owens ($1.13 mill), Kellen Moore ($575,000), Daryl Tapp ($635,000), etc... doesn't rapidly add up to even half of Sims' $2.5 million savings? That don't pass the smell test.

Long story short this all hinges on him being substantially better than you've somehow convinced yourself he is. Why do you think he's so bad? If I remember correctly you were lobbying to cut him last offseason, right on the heals of him being ranked as the 11th best guard in the league. Do you just plain not like the dude or something? That would actually make some sense, because from a football perspective your crusade against this dude just doesn't make any sense at all. There's a lot more to being successful in the NFL than having cap space.

Other than Owens those are all nothing contracts that fall off the bottom of the cap roster and are replaced with contracts of the same amounts. You essentially save nothing.

That actually makes sense, can't argue with that. Definitely negates my argument above, but if you can cut a bunch of scrubs and save half as much as cutting a decent starting guard, doesn't that make more sense to do?

 

[gandydancer]

What are you going to get THIS offseason with the money saved by cutting a starter? (Or is this strictly to sign Suh?) Another teams money saving cut. Had we seen Sims cut PRIOR to the Free Agency bonanza Id be on board. As there were corners available that would have improved the team. But I don't understand it now. And I don't know what may come this season, if Tully gets hurt or hits a wall out of nowhere I could see moving on. But I don't think we can just expect Mayhews replacement to find a plug and play replacement in the draft. Tully is a damn good player.

Love the reference of the future

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Name 21 guards who are better.

Nicks, Mankins, Evans, Levitre, Grubbs, Snee, Sitton, Yanda, Blalock, Herremans, Beadles, Mathis, Vasquez, Asamoah, Cooper, Connolly, Warmack, Iupati, Long, DeCastro, Carpenter, Zeitler, Boone, Joseph, Warford. That list is pretty much off the top of my head and I am certain there are easily 5 more out there I'd rank above him. Then there are probably a good 20 more starters out there that I would rank right with Sims. If he fell in the middle of that pack he'd be probably about the 40th best G in the league. I would agree with that ranking.

 

[tpaulus_2]

And for now the fourth fucking time my release of Tulloch would be before NEXT season. Again it's the business side of the game. Is a MLB worth $5.8m of cap space?

I get that we're talking NEXT season, but odds are he's not just going to suddenly stop being a great MLB. Can't keep running off our good players because they make more than the league average. $5.8 mill is a big cap hit, but how do you know he won't sign an extension next offseason? And if he's a top-notch MLB, then why isn't he worth $6 mill for one season?

How much value do you potentially lose replacing him with a younger and cheaper player while deploying the cap savings towards other areas where improvement is needed.

A ton with a player of his caliber.

That is exactly how the good teams get better. Maybe they do take a small step back at one spot but that decision allows them to get exponentially better at another spot and as a result the team gets better.

We're not going to get exponentially better by cutting Tulloch. The cap savings won't justify the drop-off from a stud MLB to an unknown, unless we get really lucky.

Hoping to strike gold and clearing cap space on that hope at the expense of quality veterans is not the way good teams get better. It's the kind of thing the Browns and Raiders do...

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Oh, Idk, I just thought past performance seemed like a reasonable gauge of one's talent level. I guess last year is the only single season we're allowed to reference now?

Oh, Idk, how many players can you look back on and say he was pretty good at one point. Last year he was average at best. He's another year older, plays one of (if not the) easiest positon to replace, is paid well above his talent level, and will be an UFA after the season. If we were going to pay players or make roster decisions on their past play nobody would ever be released or have to take a pay cut.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Damnit, I gotta go mow the lawn before it gets dark... I'll be back though!

 

[broncosmitty]

Love the reference of the future

Some say that Im a dreamer...... But Im not the only one.

 

[broncosmitty]

Damnit, I gotta go mow the lawn before it gets dark... I'll be back though!

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Show me how Sims is an average guard, and I'll concede the argument

Show me how he is anything but average. See how that works?

This one isn't a fact based issue that you can prove one way or the other. The premise of my initial statement was that making certain cuts would position the Lions in a way to try and help with an overwhelming cap problem. I think you could very easily replace Sims and the carry forward cap space is the benefit that makes it worthwhile to do so.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Right- can't go by what he says he wants to do, who can trust the guy anyhow? Clearly he's up to something with those unprompted comments. He's even using his family as leverage to cash in next year. For a self-proclaimed realist you sure are reaching deep into fantasy-land right now.

What color is the fucking sky in Homerville? You are telling us that he is an above average G. You think the above average play for cheap contracts? Why don't the Lions sign him to an extension right now then if he is willing to work a cap friendly deal? They could save cap space, which they could roll over to 2015 and Sims would actually end up getting more $ this year. That's a win/win for both sides and could be handled in about an hour. For a self proclaimed homer you sure are reaching deep into IdontknowwhatthefuckI'mtalkingaboutland.

 

[Microwahevo]

Guard Rob Sims: 'I pray' to avoid free agency, finish career as L | ChatLions.com

He's stated he wants to retire a Lion and that his next contract doesn't have to be mind blowing. He'd even take a home-town discount. He's happy with how his family is set up and stated he's not a greedy guy.

I don't see a reason to cut him when he's been solid, even if last years injuries hurt his play a bit. It's obvious he's not looking for big money.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Again, how do you call yourself a realist, when I point to Sims' ratings and rankings, and you counter with stuff like this? This isn't reality, this is you projecting nonsense exaggerations because I'm putting up a stiff counter argument.

Some of you guys really struggle with the concept of average and good players. Heaven forbid a guy isn't either a super-star or playing for the veteran minimum. If it's not one of those two things he sucks, apparently.

Please tell me what stiff argument you have offered other than your traditional "I'm an unrealistic homer" bullshit. Your rankings show him to be average last season but he is paid well above average. You are trying to go back two seasons to say he ranked out well that year. Well we were in the playoffs the 2011-12 season and 11-21 since. Schwartz should have kept his job then right? Because only two seasons ago he had us in the playoffs and that is the exact premise of your argument on Sims level of play, what he's done in the past.

While you flap your gums on here with statements about posters making "nonsense exaggerations" its your Honolulu blue glasses that keep your from realizing its you making those non-sensical statements. How do you counter the Schwartz keeping his job point? Because it completely invalidates your rankings and ratings theory. Or do you feel Schwartz should still have a job? It's the same logic you are trying to put forth on the value of Sims in his past play. So should he? Should he still be the head coach? Cause if you think Schwartz shouldn't be the head coach then Sims is an average guard. Welcome to reality smartass!

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Yes it is. The cap is $133 million, so that's only 1.9% of the cap total. Plus, you're assuming we don't sign another player to take his spot once we cut him, so that $2.575 drops by $500,000 to $1 million

Only 12 players on the Lions (which includes Sims) carry a cap hit higher then $2.575m. Plus, if you were actually paying attention I've been saying all along from my very first post that Swanson or Austin would need to be the guy to replace him.

And if we cut him we're obviously going to sign a free agent to take his roster spot, so that theory doesn't hold up.

Get some god damn glasses.

How so? Sims isn't making some outrageous contract, his cap hit is under $4 million this year. You're telling me that Owens ($1.13 mill), Kellen Moore ($575,000), Daryl Tapp ($635,000), etc... doesn't rapidly add up to even half of Sims' $2.5 million savings? That don't pass the smell test.

Maybe the smell test issue you are having is because your head is up your ass. All of those nothing contracts are replaced by more nothing contracts. You cut Durham its likely Fuller or Jones taking his spot. There is very little difference there, and it would be the same with the other players you mentioned. I already stated that before.


The Owens contract is the only one where there would actually be some savings and that would only be about $430k. His release would free up $1m and a contract of $570k would then count. All of the other contracts you mentioned once they were off the books would be replaced by one valued at almost the same amount. The grand total in savings of all the players you mentioned would be around $600k.


If you released Sims a new contract would start counting. It would be worth $570k. The Lions still save $2m in space. I guess what I should have said was you could release all the players you mentioned and it would save only about 30% of the amount we'd save by releasing Sims? I was too generous by using 50%. Does that smell better to you?

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I put Tulloch out there as an additional way to create needed space for 2015 so its a mute point to even discuss him right now. He's not a guy I want to cut, but the business side of football makes him a potential cap casualty next year. His future may very well be tied to Suh's.

 

[tpaulus_2]

What are you going to get THIS offseason with the money saved by cutting a starter? (Or is this strictly to sign Suh?) Another teams money saving cut. Had we seen Sims cut PRIOR to the Free Agency bonanza Id be on board. As there were corners available that would have improved the team. But I don't understand it now. And I don't know what may come this season, if Tully gets hurt or hits a wall out of nowhere I could see moving on. But I don't think we can just expect Mayhews replacement to find a plug and play replacement in the draft. Tully is a damn good player.

Thank God someone else recognizes this. Apparently he gets a lot more love outside of Detroit than he does from the home-town fans. LP mentioned the lack of sacks, but that's not a fair assessment in our defense for the last few years. He was asked to make tackles and play some coverage. He has been a tackling machine and fair in coverage. He still managed to contribute 3.5 sacks last season to boot.

Probably not a top 5 MLB, but definitely a top 10 imo. Didn't realize he was that under-appreciated by Lions fans, though. League-wide he's more well-respected than what I'm seeing here tonight, at least form what I've read/watched. Maybe not a big splash player, but a very steady MLB who is an asset on the field. We're not good enough to cut those types in hopes of finding an even better player, especially given that there's not a lot of better players at his position in the league right now.

Also, that 1,000 career tackles that he's closing in on says a lot about his consistent production, imo...

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Guard Rob Sims: 'I pray' to avoid free agency, finish career as L | ChatLions.com

He's stated he wants to retire a Lion and that his next contract doesn't have to be mind blowing. He'd even take a home-town discount. He's happy with how his family is set up and stated he's not a greedy guy.

I don't see a reason to cut him when he's been solid, even if last years injuries hurt his play a bit. It's obvious he's not looking for big money.

I read the article and never suggested he wasn't genuine, that got thrown at me as something I apparently saying. If that is what Sims wants his agent could very easily have a new deal done for him.

He watched his linemate in Raiola drop his salary to $1m and then resign another year at $1.5m so I think a 4 yr $7m deal for Sims is more than generous if he truly wants to stay in Detroit. That's a $1.75m/avg. A smaller signing bonus like $2.2m (equal to his current salary) plus vet minimum set as his salary would actually pay Sims about $1m more this year while saving the Lions $1m in cap space. Everybody wins with that and the Lions can roll over that $1m into 2015.

Wouldn't getting a new deal done for him now make perfect business sense if that article is correct? The fact that it hasn't already been done can only mean two things, either the discounted rate that Sims is thinking is higher than the Lions are thinking or the Lions are complete idiots. Both are highly plausible.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Put Levy in this equation and tell me the results???

When you are done with those findings...insert Houston also, probably look backwards in results.

Levy? He was a young LB with great athletic ability who was simply average for his first few years and really seemed to put it all together last year. I think that's what you're after, right? I'm not 100% sure I guess. Every players past performance is only a part of the puzzle, I just took exception to the idea that I can't use Sims stellar play in 2012 as evidence that he's not an average player, but it was ok for him to use 2013 and 2013 alone to call him out as average. I believe that's know as being hypocritical.

Houston had some solid years for us and was an adequate starter, but his play took a nose-dove last year (drastically worse than Sims' dip in play) and that was compounded by injuries, off-field baggage, and a hefty contract. It's not a one-size fits all kind of thing. Each player has a unique history and multiple factors to consider. In the example we're debating Sims' track record supports him being better than average, that's all I was arguing. You can bring in any "what if's" you want, but the numbers suggest he's a solid starting guard. He's peaked at "really good" and hit his lowest level of play for us last year at simply "average." That's not a crappy player in my book, but maybe my standards just aren't tough enough. It's All Pro or veteran minimum contracts for me from here out- that's the way to build a roster...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Nicks, Mankins, Evans, Levitre, Grubbs, Snee, Sitton, Yanda, Blalock, Herremans, Beadles, Mathis, Vasquez, Asamoah, Cooper, Connolly, Warmack, Iupati, Long, DeCastro, Carpenter, Zeitler, Boone, Joseph, Warford. That list is pretty much off the top of my head and I am certain there are easily 5 more out there I'd rank above him. Then there are probably a good 20 more starters out there that I would rank right with Sims. If he fell in the middle of that pack he'd be probably about the 40th best G in the league. I would agree with that ranking.

Is this based on anything at all? Fawking Jonathan Cooper has never played a single NFL snap and he's a top-20 guard and better than Sims? Long is better because he made the Pro Bowl as a bullshit injury replacement? Suh absolutely abused the kid this last season.

#HolyWitchHuntBatman!

 

[tpaulus_2]

Oh, Idk, how many players can you look back on and say he was pretty good at one point. Last year he was average at best. He's another year older, plays one of (if not the) easiest position to replace, is paid well above his talent level, and will be an UFA after the season. If we were going to pay players or make roster decisions on their past play nobody would ever be released or have to take a pay cut.

I'm not talking about "at some point" I'm talking about a whopping two seasons ago. Last year he was average, two years ago he was very good. So, therefore, his $3.75 million cap numbers is well above his talent level? You told me to look at the numbers, but you also don't seem to realize that every player who isn't a star doesn't necessarily play for $1 million a season. Good players make better money than average players. Your personal opinion aside, Sims is a good guard. Under $4 million per season for a good guard isn't that unreasonable. Is 3% of the total cap for a good starting guard and the security that comes with him really too much? Look at the numbers.