ALL THINGS SUH

[Dr. Evil-er]

What if.................the Lions cut Sims, Jones, Mosley, Palmer, and Owens??? Assuming that I am high right? Here is the thinking..............

The Lions would net out $5m+ from those cuts. Obviously that means Swanson or Austion at LG, Webster in the DE rotation, and Whitehead/Lewis step it up on special teams and as backups.

Go ahead and way overpay for a new deal on Suh but only free up about $3m. That's about $8m new added to the $2m we have now for $10m in cap space. Spend none of it.

Why not? Because it can roll it over into 2015. Basically just add $10m to whatever the cap amount is as what the Lions can spend. Lions are at $128m now with Suh counting as $13.5m. Cutting Tulloch and Ihedigbo next offseason would free up more than $4.8m. With the carry over we'd have about $110m committed and $33m in space.

I didnt have a contract for Suh being counted in the 2015 numbers so figure a cap hit of $18m. Remember and say thank you to the highly unqualified Lewand for the $9.7m+ of already dead $ in that number, so the amount actually being applied against the new contract isnt very much.

You've got about $15m left after all of that takes place. Maybe you get another cap increase and that amount increases. At least it gives you some wiggle room and if worked wisely its the starting process for how you get out of cap hell without destroying the team. Draft well to replace the guys we had to cut and the strategy works.

 

[broncosmitty]

You want to cut Sims AND Tulloch now? I don't see how the defense could even slow anyone down without its best non-lineman. Why can't we just cut Stafford? (Yeah, yeah, I know.)

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

You want to cut Sims AND Tulloch now? I don't see how the defense could even slow anyone down without its best non-lineman. Why can't we just cut Stafford? (Yeah, yeah, I know.)

No. The release of Tulloch would be after the 2014 season. Sims I would release now. I struggle to understand the attachment many posters, not just you, have with Sims. He is the type of player that NFL rosters are full of and replaced all the time with younger less expensive players. He is absolutely average and never has been more. Add to that he is an UFA after the season and he is the exact type of player you cut. Relatively expensive at his position which is probably the easiest non kicker position to replace. The reward outweighs the risk.

That carryover is needed. We are at $128m right now for 2015 counting Suh at something like $13.4m and look out if his new deal is only applying a few mil as a hit from the new deal while they are still paying off his old one. That will mean gigantic cap hits in years 3 on.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I'd far rather keep good-to-decent players at fair contracts like Mosley, Palmer, Jones, Sims, and particularly Tulloch. Tully is a very good MLB, why on Earth anyone would want to cut him is beyond me?

Montell Owens would make sense- I think he's just heading to camp basically as injury insurance for Leshoure.

I really don't see much sense in cutting good players just to free up some cap space in hopes of signing different good players. The grass isn't always greener, bird in hand, and all that jazz...

 

[tpaulus_2]

No. The release of Tulloch would be after the 2014 season. Sims I would release now. I struggle to understand the attachment many posters, not just you, have with Sims. He is the type of player that NFL rosters are full of and replaced all the time with younger less expensive players. He is absolutely average and never has been more. Add to that he is an UFA after the season and he is the exact type of player you cut. Relatively expensive at his position which is probably the easiest non kicker position to replace. The reward outweighs the risk.

That carryover is needed. We are at $128m right now for 2015 counting Suh at something like $13.4m and look out if his new deal is only applying a few mil as a hit from the new deal while they are still paying off his old one. That will mean gigantic cap hits in years 3 on.

I think you're selling him way short. Not to be a dick (well... maybe just a little ), but what are you basing your "average" ranking off? He was pretty well average in the rankings last season, but that was also the lowest he's been as a Lion. He was rated as the 11th best guard in the NFL the year before, and that's out of 64 "starting" guards, plus a hand full of long-term injury replacements who had enough snaps to qualify. That's way above average. I'm not saying he's a stud, but I sure remember the rotating door at LG that we had for years and years before he came along and gave us the best guard we'd had in a decade (until Warford came along).

His salary is also pretty reasonable, imo, in the $3 million cap-hit range, if I'm not mistaken.

If that's the kind of guy who is thoroughly average and relatively expensive, then I must say that you're setting a nearly impossible standard for what would be considered a successful contract situation for our front office. Sims is an above-average guard (not average, not great, squarely in-between) who makes an above-average salary. He's the kind of player I wish we had 8 or 10 more of on the roster- steady, productive, reliable veterans who aren't crippling the salary cap...

 

[tpaulus_2]

I guess, on the whole, I'm just not into cutting productive players in the name of modest cap savings. No point, imo, in cutting decent players to save a little bit of $$ only to use it in the next few years on players we can only hope are as good as the ones we're replacing.

There's plenty of dead wood on the roster like Durham, Owens, Kellen Moore, Daryl Tapp, and Travis Lewis, to name a few options who wouldn't hurt us one bit to cut lose. Save money by cutting the shitty player, not the decent ones. And especially not Tulloch- apparently he's pretty under-rated around here... did not know that, I guess...

 

[tpaulus_2]

That carryover is needed. We are at $128m right now for 2015 counting Suh at something like $13.4m and look out if his new deal is only applying a few mil as a hit from the new deal while they are still paying off his old one. That will mean gigantic cap hits in years 3 on.

Are you taking into account a $10 plus million a year cap increase? Maybe even more in 2016 when the new TV deals kick in?

"They" projected a modest $3 million dollar gain this year, that was smashed when the real numbers come out, same with last year's cap increase. The cap growth is tied to revenue, and the league has basically been printing $$ these last few years- as such the cap grown over the next five or so years will blow the previous five year's numbers out of the water, and should be a huge help in absorbing the massive contracts of Suh, Stafford, and Megatron.

That's right folks, there is help on the horizon, finally. I'm hoping that when Suh re-signs they load as much as they can get away with into this season to lessen his cap number, at least somewhat, down the road... then use next year's cap increase to chew up another good portion of his deal so that his cap figure becomes a bit more reasonable for the rest of the contract. Basically buy back up all that bonus $$ they pushed down the line that is now massively inflating his cap number...

 

[themuzzer]

Suh may or may not even want to be here. If we had tons of money and he didn't sign it would be obvious. We don't have tons of money so it will be easy for him to leave then say "Detroit just couldn't give me what I think I'm worth but I love the city of Detroit and the fans" blah blah blah.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I'd far rather keep good-to-decent players at fair contracts like Mosley, Palmer, Jones, Sims, and particularly Tulloch. Tully is a very good MLB, why on Earth anyone would want to cut him is beyond me?

Montell Owens would make sense- I think he's just heading to camp basically as injury insurance for Leshoure.

I really don't see much sense in cutting good players just to free up some cap space in hopes of signing different good players. The grass isn't always greener, bird in hand, and all that jazz...

Tulloch would be released before the 2015 season when he'd be set to turn 31 and have cap hit of $5.8m. There is a business side to this game that absolutely impacts the talent on the field and therefore wins and losses. The Lions have been abysmal at the business side for a very long time.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I think you're selling him way short. Not to be a dick (well... maybe just a little ), but what are you basing your "average" ranking off? He was pretty well average in the rankings last season, but that was also the lowest he's been as a Lion. He was rated as the 11th best guard in the NFL the year before, and that's out of 64 "starting" guards, plus a hand full of long-term injury replacements who had enough snaps to qualify. That's way above average. I'm not saying he's a stud, but I sure remember the rotating door at LG that we had for years and years before he came along and gave us the best guard we'd had in a decade (until Warford came along).

His salary is also pretty reasonable, imo, in the $3 million cap-hit range, if I'm not mistaken.

If that's the kind of guy who is thoroughly average and relatively expensive, then I must say that you're setting a nearly impossible standard for what would be considered a successful contract situation for our front office. Sims is an above-average guard (not average, not great, squarely in-between) who makes an above-average salary. He's the kind of player I wish we had 8 or 10 more of on the roster- steady, productive, reliable veterans who aren't crippling the salary cap...

Sims contract was signed before the 2010 season, before the escalating contracts of interior lineman the last 2-3 years. Yet he is the 21st highest paid G in the league. That's his contract average, not cap hit. He is NOT the 21st best G in the league.

Why are you using his performance from two years ago to justify the quality of his play? He isn't getting younger. He was average at best last year and cutting him now is the smart business decision that helps the team for 2015. We spent a 3rd pick on Swanson and Austin has been being groomed for two years. How difficult should it really be to replace an average player? The benefit of what the Lions get is more than the benefit of keeping him for another year only to have him leave via FA next year. And don't point me back to the article where he was said to not be looking to cash in on his next contract. He isn't signing a one yr vet deal and other teams have plenty of $ to pay a veteran starting G, even an average one, more than we can afford to.

Is there any starting player on this fucking team you don't think is above average? I can't believe we haven't won multiple SB's with the level of talent you think we've amassed on this team.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I guess, on the whole, I'm just not into cutting productive players in the name of modest cap savings. No point, imo, in cutting decent players to save a little bit of $$ only to use it in the next few years on players we can only hope are as good as the ones we're replacing.

There's plenty of dead wood on the roster like Durham, Owens, Kellen Moore, Daryl Tapp, and Travis Lewis, to name a few options who wouldn't hurt us one bit to cut lose. Save money by cutting the shitty player, not the decent ones. And especially not Tulloch- apparently he's pretty under-rated around here... did not know that, I guess...

Come on man!!

$2.575m isn't modest cap savings. That can go a very long way when structured correctly. And the idea would be to develop or draft his replacement, and improve upon his mediocre talent level. Not to go sign a free agent.

If you cut every single one of your dead wood players it wouldn't amount to half the cost standings of cutting Sims. Other than Owens those are all nothing contracts that fall off the bottom of the cap roster and are replaced with contracts of the same amounts. You essentially save nothing.

And for now the fourth fucking time my release of Tulloch would be before NEXT season. Again it's the business side of the game. Is a MLB worth $5.8m of cap space? How much value do you potentially lose replacing him with a younger and cheaper player while deploying the cap savings towards other areas where improvement is needed. That is exactly how the good teams get better. Maybe they do take a small step back at one spot but that decision allows them to get exponentially better at another spot and as a result the team gets better.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Are you taking into account a $10 plus million a year cap increase? Maybe even more in 2016 when the new TV deals kick in?

"They" projected a modest $3 million dollar gain this year, that was smashed when the real numbers come out, same with last year's cap increase. The cap growth is tied to revenue, and the league has basically been printing $$ these last few years- as such the cap grown over the next five or so years will blow the previous five year's numbers out of the water, and should be a huge help in absorbing the massive contracts of Suh, Stafford, and Megatron.

That's right folks, there is help on the horizon, finally. I'm hoping that when Suh re-signs they load as much as they can get away with into this season to lessen his cap number, at least somewhat, down the road... then use next year's cap increase to chew up another good portion of his deal so that his cap figure becomes a bit more reasonable for the rest of the contract. Basically buy back up all that bonus $$ they pushed down the line that is now massively inflating his cap number...

You do NOT get out of cap hell with a cap increase. Honest to god TP, are you drunk? Every team in the league gets the same increase. We gain absolutely nothing by that.

Nobody needs a cap lesson on what its based on but you sure need one on how it works. Cap goes up, contracts go up. That's across the board, every team will have to pay those. So how exactly does EVERY team being able to spend more through a higher cap amount help us improve from the team with the least amount of cap space to one in the mid pack? It doesn't, it's that simple. We remain behind the eight ball in the competitive landscape.

Sorry folks, but there is NOT help on the horizon via cap increases. Take a look at the actual numbers for a change TP. What you seem to be saying is that we use any cap increase to offset the kings ransom we will have to pay Suh. But while that is going on every other team in the league will use that $ to lock down their quality young players and pursue the final pieces of the puzzle they think are needed to win a championship. Whereas we will be trying to figure out whose contract to restructure so we can sign guys like maybe Fairley or after that Reiff, Levy, etc. because or cap position will not have actually changed one bit. We will still be the team with the least amount of space, and that is not the business position you want to be in.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Tulloch would be released before the 2015 season when he'd be set to turn 31 and have cap hit of $5.8m. There is a business side to this game that absolutely impacts the talent on the field and therefore wins and losses. The Lions have been abysmal at the business side for a very long time.

Seems like somewhat fair value for his services. Idk where top MLBs are, but $6 mill a season has to be the very limit of their range, I would think. But we're talking about the last year of his contract, something good players don't usually reach. Pending what happens with Suh in the next few months, I'd absolutely expect Tully to get an extension, thus knocking down that nearly $6 million cap hit.

We'd be crazy, imo, to cut him over that kind of money. When was the last time the Lions had a LB with 1,000 career tackles? That's a pretty significant achievement in the NFL and we're talking about a guy who is two seasons away from doing just that in favor of a modest cap savings? MLB is not a premium $$ position, and we have a premium MLB who we can afford to keep. Why make our defense drastically worse in the name of a couple million in cap savings.

I know you referenced him being almost 31 by then, but a MLB whose game isn't built on speed should still have a high-level 2 or 3 year contract left in the tank. We're not talking about a RB here.

For my money Tulloch is easily a top-ten MLB right now, so I guess I just have a hard time with the idea of cutting him when we're only talking modest savings. No need to rob Peter to pay Paul in this case, imo...

 

[themuzzer]

Is there any starting player on this fucking team you don't think is above average? I can't believe we haven't won multiple SB's with the level of talent you think we've amassed on this team.

Can't teach the Kool-Aid drinkers reality. But I'm sure there might be one or two that think were going to the SB this year.

They are the ones that make my day.

All Hail the Practice Squad!!!!!!! For some reason one of these guys will save us.

 

[gandydancer]

I guess, on the whole, I'm just not into cutting productive players in the name of modest cap savings. No point, imo, in cutting decent players to save a little bit of $$ only to use it in the next few years on players we can only hope are as good as the ones we're replacing.

There's plenty of dead wood on the roster like Durham, Owens, Kellen Moore, Daryl Tapp, and Travis Lewis, to name a few options who wouldn't hurt us one bit to cut lose. Save money by cutting the shitty player, not the decent ones. And especially not Tulloch- apparently he's pretty under-rated around here... did not know that, I guess...

Worford stepped in no problem. Waddle and Fauria productive from UDFA. The team is a organization and has too many breaks in the cogs. I do agree with Meow on a lack on the business side. Most teams have one large and two or three mid to large contracts. The Lions have 3 huge fucking deals. Having those in place and wanting to keep all 3 you have to sacrafice somewhere. I am sure Meow already said it somewhere. You cut bottom feeder contracts and save no money. Just replaced by another contract of same pay of 51 top contracts I believe??? Tulloch can be replaced. Drafting shit like Lewis and not being able to develope into starters is another fucked up cog for another thread.

And for now the fourth fucking time my release of Tulloch would be before NEXT season. Again it's the business side of the game. Is a MLB worth $5.8m of cap space? How much value do you potentially lose replacing him with a younger and cheaper player while deploying the cap savings towards other areas where improvement is needed. That is exactly how the good teams get better. Maybe they do take a small step back at one spot but that decision allows them to get exponentially better at another spot and as a result the team gets better.

The new word is cap causality... see it more and more. Packers I hate and prime example how Thompson lets them walk and does not extend stupid deals. They also do a little better at drafting and developing players. Lions can not even approach the next man up mentality

 

[LPinSLC]

Tulloch has been a solid MLB. He is not a gamechanger. He never has been. Never been one to accumulate sacks or turnovers. The reality is, outside of being a solid MLB, that is a position that could use an upgrade IMO. With that being said, I don't think you cut a solid starter without his replacement on the roster. Maybe Levy switches back inside? Still would need a replacement outside for Levy though.

 

[broncosmitty]

No. The release of Tulloch would be after the 2014 season. Sims I would release now. I struggle to understand the attachment many posters, not just you, have with Sims. He is the type of player that NFL rosters are full of and replaced all the time with younger less expensive players. He is absolutely average and never has been more. Add to that he is an UFA after the season and he is the exact type of player you cut. Relatively expensive at his position which is probably the easiest non kicker position to replace. The reward outweighs the risk.

That carryover is needed. We are at $128m right now for 2015 counting Suh at something like $13.4m and look out if his new deal is only applying a few mil as a hit from the new deal while they are still paying off his old one. That will mean gigantic cap hits in years 3 on.

What are you going to get THIS offseason with the money saved by cutting a starter? (Or is this strictly to sign Suh?) Another teams money saving cut. Had we seen Sims cut PRIOR to the Free Agency bonanza Id be on board. As there were corners available that would have improved the team. But I don't understand it now. And I don't know what may come this season, if Tully gets hurt or hits a wall out of nowhere I could see moving on. But I don't think we can just expect Mayhews replacement to find a plug and play replacement in the draft. Tully is a damn good player.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Sims contract was signed before the 2010 season, before the escalating contracts of interior lineman the last 2-3 years. Yet he is the 21st highest paid G in the league. That's his contract average, not cap hit. He is NOT the 21st best G in the league.

Name 21 guards who are better. If he's not the 21st best guard he's darn close. I'm not sure why you're so down on the guy. His play over his Lions tenure is far better than you are giving him credit for. He was average last season on a down year. I'll take a guy whose floor is average.

Why are you using his performance from two years ago to justify the quality of his play?

Oh, Idk, I just thought past performance seemed like a reasonable gauge of one's talent level. I guess last year is the only single season we're allowed to reference now?

He isn't getting younger. He was average at best last year and cutting him now is the smart business decision that helps the team for 2015.

Unfortunately it's not necessarily the best football decision for 2015. He may have been average last year, but his track record says he's been reasonably better than that, as recently as 2012 he was among the best ranked guards in the league. That fact doesn't simply go away because it's inconvenient for your argument. We can't go cutting every guy who has a down season, especially when that down season was still at an average level.

As for his age, we're talking about another guy who is only 30 and isn't a RB. For an interior lineman their best years are often their early 30s. That position is about brute strength, intelligence, and experience. We have a guy who has played at a very high level within the last two seasons (and wasn't nearly half as bad last season as you're trying to make it seem) who is entering his prime years, and you want to cut him to save, at most, $2 million in cap space?

I just can't come to grips with cutting these kinds of players for such relatively minimal gains. If you have to cut two or three Rob Sim's to sign a guy who is only moderately better, or two guys who aren't as good, what have we gained? I'll pay up for players of this caliber, especially since we're not talking about premium salaries here to begin with, and take the talent over the cap space every time.

We spent a 3rd pick on Swanson and Austin has been being groomed for two years. How difficult should it really be to replace an average player?

Show me how Sims is an average guard, and I'll concede the argument. All I'm reading are vague references to his rapidly declining play, yet no references. Look at the rankings and ratings that people who watch every snap he plays come up with, rather than just going with... well, to be honest I'm not sure why you think he's bad? Maybe an article about him digressing last year? I really don't know, it's a bit of a head-scratcher at the moment. I know I'm Mr. Positive and all, but this guy is simply better than you're giving him credit for. He's also said that he wants to retire a Lion, so I'm reasonably sure he'd sign an extension next year to bring his cap hit back down.

If he gives us a second consecutive year of average and the coaches think Austin or Swanson are ready to step in, that's when you make the change, not one season remove from him being one of the best in the league at his position. That's jumping the gun at it's finest right there. I know it's the "what have you done for me lately" league in this instant media age we live in, but c'mon man, we're not talking about some scrub player here, despite your unfounded dislike for him.


The benefit of what the Lions get is more than the benefit of keeping him for another year only to have him leave via FA next year. See above. He's expressed a desire to stay in Detroit, unprompted. Says his family is settled in and he like where he's at. If his contract demands are reasonable and his play levels back out this season he'd be exactly the kind of guy you want to keep. If Rodney Austin is playing so well that he forces Sims off the roster by that time, all the better. I think the benefit of keeping an established quality veteran on board for a reasonable salary outweighs the risk of exposing our stellar pass blocking unit in favor of an unproven player and some cap savings.

The o-line is one of our strengths, why go messing with that for a few bucks in the bank?

And don't point me back to the article where he was said to not be looking to cash in on his next contract. He isn't signing a one yr vet deal and other teams have plenty of $ to pay a veteran starting G, even an average one, more than we can afford to.

Right- can't go by what he says he wants to do, who can trust the guy anyhow? Clearly he's up to something with those unprompted comments. He's even using his family as leverage to cash in next year. For a self-proclaimed realist you sure are reaching deep into fantasy-land right now.

And who said anything about a one year deal? He's a freaking guard, not a 300+ touch-per-year RB who is broken down from all the abuse. This "RB Wall" at 30 years old has crept into everyone's consciousness and now 30 is the wall for seemingly every player, never mind that at some positions, guard in particular, are just hitting their prime at that age. There's no reason that if he rounds back to form this year we wouldn't be looking to give him a 2 or 3 year deal if he's serious about wanting to stay in the D as much as he says he is.

Is there any starting player on this fucking team you don't think is above average?

Pettigrew, any WR not named Calvin Johnson for the last few years. Raiola prior to last year, still unsure if that was an anomaly, or if he can repeat, but I'm pretty skeptical given his career track record. Right tackle has the potential to be shaky if Waddle isn't the real-deal. Right guard was well below average prior to Warford.

On defense Jason Jones is very much average. Palmer was average last year. Houston and Slay we well below average last year, though Slay had an excuse. Delmas was pretty average. Levy was average prior to last season. Bill Bentley has been below average.

I honestly don't think all of our players are awesome, that's just something the "realist" segment likes to lump on anyone who has the audacity speak up when a player is being trashed without merit. There's plenty of suck on this team, no reason to try to heap more where it isn't already, imo.

I can't believe we haven't won multiple SB's with the level of talent you think we've amassed on this team.

Again, how do you call yourself a realist, when I point to Sims' ratings and rankings, and you counter with stuff like this? This isn't reality, this is you projecting nonsense exaggerations because I'm putting up a stiff counter argument.

Some of you guys really struggle with the concept of average and good players. Heaven forbid a guy isn't either a super-star or playing for the veteran minimum. If it's not one of those two things he sucks, apparently.

 

[broncosmitty]

Might have to go buy a Kindle so I can read all of that. Yowzers!

 

[gandydancer]

Oh, Idk, I just thought past performance seemed like a reasonable gauge of one's talent level. I guess last year is the only single season we're allowed to reference now?

Put Levy in this equation and tell me the results???

When you are done with those findings...insert Houston also, probably look backwards in results.