AL Cy Young Award

[Hambombs]

Not arguing that innings is not important, but if a player is significantly better in the 2 most important parts of a pitchers job how can you hate on him...

A pitchers job- let up as little runs as possible to get the win... How he does this is irrelevant...
Colon has 4 more wins than iwakuma and darvish, and 6 more than sale... He also had over .12 better ERA than all of the 3 pitchers...

Colon is not better than sale or darvish

 

[Hambombs]

Is king felix a joke?? he does not deserve to be on this list this season... not at all...

It's pretty close between him Sanchez and iwakuma

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Colon is not better than sale or darvish

I agree he is not better... But he diefintiely had a better season... do you see the difference??

 

[Hambombs]

I agree he is not better... But he diefintiely had a better season... do you see the difference??

Slightly better in era? So wins is what seperates them? OK

 

[StanMarsh51]

No it is not, it is only becoming less important by you stats people who pick and choose the stats you guys like... Baseball and all sports is about winning... Giving your team the lead when you leave the game is the pitchers main job... Therefore it is the most important stat... I agree it doesnt give the whole picture but no one stat does... for example you guys are shunning Colon even though he has the highest ERA in the AL out of all qualified SPs... But colon is better than Iwakuma, Sale, and darvish in the 2 clearly most important pitching stats... Both pretty significantly... therefore he had the better season this season...

So then how did Lincecum win going 15-7 with a 2.48 ERA while Carpenter went 17-4 with a 2.24 ERA

If you're going to say that Carpenter had the better season because he beat Lincecum in the "2 clearly most important pitching stats," why didn't Carpenter win?

Some other examples:
Felix Hernandez finished ahead of Chris Sale in 2012 with a less wins and a worse ERA
Jered Weaver finished ahead of Buccholz in 2010 with less wins and a worse ERA
Lincecum finished better than his teammate Vogelsong in 2011 despite a worse ERA and worse record

And if I dug deeper I'm sure I'd find more examples.

 

[broncosmitty]

I am willing to revise my top 5 to:

1. Scherzer
2. Colon
3. Iwakuma
4. Darvish
5. Sale

Hope you're willing to revise it again.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So then how did Lincecum win going 15-7 with a 2.48 ERA while Carpenter went 17-4 with a 2.24 ERA

If you're going to say that Carpenter had the better season because he beat Lincecum in the "2 clearly most important pitching stats," why didn't Carpenter win?

Some other examples:
Felix Hernandez finished ahead of Chris Sale in 2012 with a less wins and a worse ERA
Jered Weaver finished ahead of Buccholz in 2010 with less wins and a worse ERA
Lincecum finished better than his teammate Vogelsong in 2011 despite a worse ERA and worse record

And if I dug deeper I'm sure I'd find more examples.

Who said that the voters were correct... we often disagree with what they vote, but if it is close like 17 and 15 i would use other stats to make the analysis... Even though i am talking very strongly to make my point, i do look at the other stats as well... I just see the difference between who is the better pitcher/player and who had the better season... it seems like most of you can not make that differential...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Hope you're willing to revise it again.

Definitely willing to... if you guys can make a valid argument without diminishing the value of a stat...

 

[$500 Million]

Well it should go to the best pitcher at the time IMO

There is no "best pitcher" in the AL this year, that's why this thread is 14 pages long.

 

[broncosmitty]

Not arguing that innings is not important, but if a player is significantly better in the 2 most important parts of a pitchers job how can you hate on him...

A pitchers job- let up as little runs as possible to get the win... How he does this is irrelevant...
Colon has 4 more wins than iwakuma and darvish, and 6 more than sale... He also had over .12 better ERA than all of the 3 pitchers...

I'm not hating on any of the guys were discussing. They're among the best pitchers in the AL, this season. But Ws shouldn't determine anything.(or everything I guess. They can determine some things) Unless a starter goes complete game and drives in all his run support himself, his Ws are thanks atleast in part to his teammates. Scherzer hasnt finished off a single W in his career. If Papa Grande or Benoit blew 4 games where Max was setup for a W would his season be less impressive due to a bad bullpen? If Colons As were shutout 6 times in games he didn't allow a run would his ERA have less impact since his win total would be down. If a guy logs a high amount of innings I, personally, appreciate all of his other numbers more. (Colon is on a team that allows him to get Ws, Sale doesn't have that luxury)

 

[broncosmitty]

Definitely willing to... if you guys can make a valid argument without diminishing the value of a stat...

Can you revise your list without inflating the value of a certain one? :rollseyes:

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

No. There was a valid debate last season. My argument against Trout was that he had 2+ massive months then tailed off quite a bit in Aug. & Sept. when his team was fighting for a playoff spot. I also said that we shouldn't turn a 2 month wonder into Mickey Mantle until he proved himself over time. Well he's made a believer out of me and would have a strong case for MVP this year if his team was in the mix.

And it's been demonstrated that this is a myth. His August/Sept wasn't *as* good as his May/June/July, but they were still excellent months.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'm not hating on any of the guys were discussing. They're among the best pitchers in the AL, this season. But Ws shouldn't determine anything.(or everything I guess. They can determine some things) Unless a starter goes complete game and drives in all his run support himself, his Ws are thanks atleast in part to his teammates. Scherzer hasnt finished off a single W in his career. If Papa Grande or Benoit blew 4 games where Max was setup for a W would his season be less impressive due to a bad bullpen? If Colons As were shutout 6 times in games he didn't allow a run would his ERA have less impact since his win total would be down. If a guy logs a high amount of innings I, personally, appreciate all of his other numbers more. (Colon is on a team that allows him to get Ws, Sale doesn't have that luxury)

It would be less impressive because he would not have hit the milestone of 20 wins... He would still be in the top 5 but maybe not the clear cut CY like he is now... His ERA is a little too low, but he does have the best WHIP...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Can you revise your list without inflating the value of a certain one? :rollseyes:

I could!!! I will admit i am going a little too strong to my argument to attempt to make my point, unfortunately it doesnt seem you guys are getting it... If i had the time and was willing i would make my true analysis(to prove me right or wrong) on colon being the #2, but it is not worth it since i do believe that Scherzer is the clear cut winner...

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

No it is not, it is only becoming less important by you stats people who pick and choose the stats you guys like... Baseball and all sports is about winning... Giving your team the lead when you leave the game is the pitchers main job... Therefore it is the most important stat... I agree it doesnt give the whole picture but no one stat does... for example you guys are shunning Colon even though he has the highest ERA in the AL out of all qualified SPs... But colon is better than Iwakuma, Sale, and darvish in the 2 clearly most important pitching stats... Both pretty significantly... therefore he had the better season this season...

Yeah, you really just don't get baseball.

Assigning wins to an individual pitcher is pointless, and disregards the efforts of the other players on the team. The game is all about winning, but the TEAM wins, not one select player.

I don't "pick and choose" the stats I like. I look at all of them, and put them into proper context. I look at wins, but it's not an important factor in determining the quality of a pitcher. It's only used if you have two pitchers from similar teams who are otherwise similar in other categories.

Wins hasn't become less important as a measure of pitcher quality because of "stat guys". It's because of a number of things, such as realizing that it's a team accomplishment (as noted above), and because pitchers pitch less innings and factor into fewer decisions. The game has become more specialized, so assigning the win to an individual player is a disservice to the other pitchers and players on the team.

Wins is not one of the two most important statistics. It's probably not even in the Top 10. The sooner you realize that and accept it, the sooner you might actually learn something about the game.

Also, a pitcher's "job" isn't to win games. It's to go get outs and pitch as deep into the game as possible. The combination of those two things is what puts the team in position to win. But it still doesn't matter if the offense doesn't score because it's a team game, believe it or not.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I do think you guys are having trouble differentiating between best pitcher and who had the best season...

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I do think you guys are having trouble differentiating between best pitcher and who had the best season...

We don't. Thanks for your concern.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah, you really just don't get baseball.

Assigning wins to an individual pitcher is pointless, and disregards the efforts of the other players on the team. The game is all about winning, but the TEAM wins, not one select player.

I don't "pick and choose" the stats I like. I look at all of them, and put them into proper context. I look at wins, but it's not an important factor in determining the quality of a pitcher. It's only used if you have two pitchers from similar teams who are otherwise similar in other categories.

Wins hasn't become less important as a measure of pitcher quality because of "stat guys". It's because of a number of things, such as realizing that it's a team accomplishment (as noted above), and because pitchers pitch less innings and factor into fewer decisions. The game has become more specialized, so assigning the win to an individual player is a disservice to the other pitchers and players on the team.

Wins is not one of the two most important statistics. It's probably not even in the Top 10. The sooner you realize that and accept it, the sooner you might actually learn something about the game.

Imsmartherthanyou, stop repeating the same arguments and try to understand the other argument... I understand you are stubborn and not willing to learn something new, but if you dont see the importance of the stat WINS then it is you that does not understand baseball...

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I am willing to revise my top 5 to:

1. Scherzer
2. Colon
3. Iwakuma
4. Darvish
5. Sale

I'm willing to still completely disregard your opinion.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Not arguing that innings is not important, but if a player is significantly better in the 2 most important parts of a pitchers job how can you hate on him...

A pitchers job- let up as little runs as possible to get the win... How he does this is irrelevant...
Colon has 4 more wins than iwakuma and darvish, and 6 more than sale... He also had over .12 better ERA than all of the 3 pitchers...

You have no idea what a pitcher's job is.