50 Year NBA Salary Draft 3rd Place : UK vs WLK

[wlk3]

Sorry in advance for the long post, but I just love talking basketball.


Thought I'd chime in to elaborate on my vote for UK.

Even with a bit more firepower from UK's 1/3rd lineup, I still thought this would be close to a wash.

Looking at WLK's team, I thought at least from an offensive standpoint he had really great cohesive teams. While Okur might be a head scratcher to some, he's perfect for that offense. Penny would be able to post, you would draw out the center by having Okur on the perimeter, and Dale Ellis in the corner. Then you'd have Kemp at the high post and English as the slasher. I actually really like how those pieces fit.

UK's offense is also really cohesive too however with the perfect match of bruisers, perimeter players, slashers and shooting. His team is really versatile in the way they could score and would be a problem to match up with defensively. Both teams create big mis-matches either way. I think UK's team would be more consistent scoring, but WLK's could be more dynamic. I had to call this a wash.

The 2/4 matchup I had in large favor to UK.

There's a lot that goes into it, but the basic premise for me is that WLK's team would absolutely NEED for the "role" players to produce to win this matchup. Jordan would effectively act as a decoy most plays because UK's team could effectively double him and dare everyone else to beat them. WLK's team has no interior presence at all. As constructed is a 1 in 4 out concept, with Gasol likely playing the high post.

UK's team plays to it's star's strength. Hakeem and Webber would form a really lethal high low duo. Both are able to hit the mid range and both were really good passers. Add to that TP is a premiere pick and roll point guard, and would create all sorts of really hard situations to guard. Considering There'd be no back end up help with Gasol and/or Rodman having to come out against UK's bigs, it opens up the entire court for him. Then you have King as an added back side scorer with Mullin out there for 3's.

If just one of Battier or Porter is off for UK's team, he has no shot of winning. Those guys would be mostly just spot up shooters, and neither likely to put the ball on the floor to get to the rim. Being that, it creates one less way for WLK's team to score against UK.

What I look for in my judgement of who I think had the better team, it's who has the most ways to win. If option 1 is taken away, how effective would option 2 be? etc.

UK's team definitely had many more ways to win.

This is exactly all I was asking for... perhaps it's too much of a demand but I feel if someone who puts in the time WE all do has a problem with what transpired, out of respect to ALL someone would be courteous enough to engage... I know I try as much as I can when someone feels they got the short end...

Having said that... your breakdown of my 1&3 was great and it's very much what I saw when looking at the those groups... I felt if I didn't win it, it would be damn close... our view of the 2&4 are very very much similar as well with the exception of the MJ factor... 100% agree with your point that Shane and Porter MUST be on for this to work... I also agree to him having a much more dynamic offense however... if I'm matching up Jordan with King, Rodman with Dream and Pau with Webber Shane w/Mullins imo things for his team would be equally difficult... my guys can stay home, switch screens at times etc... I'll admit with his dynamic scoring it will be difficult which is why I made sure to give MJ some exceptional defenders... I guess what I'm getting at is with Dream being his 1 true defensive star, my role players have at least equal chance at success with the majority of his team facing good to great defensive standouts... which is where the MJ factor comes in... MJ was known to beat double teams, especially when the 2 players doing the doubling are average defenders at best... I'll respond more if you'd like to continue but I gotta run... thanks for the dialogue though...

 

[CitySushi]

This is exactly all I was asking for... perhaps it's too much of a demand but I feel if someone who puts in the time WE all do has a problem with what transpired, out of respect to ALL someone would be courteous enough to engage... I know I try as much as I can when someone feels they got the short end...

Having said that... your breakdown of my 1&3 was great and it's very much what I saw when looking at the those groups... I felt if I didn't win it, it would be damn close... our view of the 2&4 are very very much similar as well with the exception of the MJ factor... 100% agree with your point that Shane and Porter MUST be on for this to work... I also agree to him having a much more dynamic offense however... if I'm matching up Jordan with King, Rodman with Dream and Pau with Webber Shane w/Mullins imo things for his team would be equally difficult... my guys can stay home, switch screens at times etc... I'll admit with his dynamic scoring it will be difficult which is why I made sure to give MJ some exceptional defenders... I guess what I'm getting at is with Dream being his 1 true defensive star, my role players have at least equal chance at success with the majority of his team facing good to great defensive standouts... which is where the MJ factor comes in... MJ was known to beat double teams, especially when the 2 players doing the doubling are average defenders at best... I'll respond more if you'd like to continue but I gotta run... thanks for the dialogue though...

I agree with you on MJ being able to beat a double team, but I think you missed one big factor in building a team around him. You needed one additional play maker from the perimeter to elevate Jordan's game. It's the really underrated part that Pippen brought to the table. Pippen was able to be that back side slasher to get to the rim. And if he was stopped, he was a great passer and was able to hit those additional role players off the secondary look. Many times the pick and pop guys aren't the first ones to touch the ball. The way it generally works, is that based off rotations it's generally the 3rd or even 4th guy who gets the clean look. Neither Porter nor Battier would truly be able to accomplish that.

Because neither of those guys is a threat to go to the basket, it makes defensive rotations much easier because defenders can sell out on defense to defend the 3. If you swing it to a guy like Pippen, who can put the ball on the ground and get to the hoop, it makes additional defenders collapse because of rotations, which was why the Triangle works. The Triangle works primarily because of the initial double team, but it's the secondary defense, where it really shines. It's why when you doubled Shaq, you had Kobe as that secondary threat. Its why when you doubled MJ, you had Pippen on the back side. In this case, Gasol isn't nearly as effective because his game is mostly perimeter oriented (which he is still great at).

I really liked when you had Grant Hill on the same initial team as Jordan, because I thought that was a great combo. If you had Hill and Jordan, with say Porter, Okur and Rodman, you could see how your offense would be much more effective. You would have two spot up shooters, including a big to draw another big away from the hoop. Then you would have a dynamic slasher/passer/scorer/shooter on the backside who would create additional looks for guys like Porter and Okur.

 

[wlk3]

I agree with you on MJ being able to beat a double team, but I think you missed one big factor in building a team around him. You needed one additional play maker from the perimeter to elevate Jordan's game. It's the really underrated part that Pippen brought to the table. Pippen was able to be that back side slasher to get to the rim. And if he was stopped, he was a great passer and was able to hit those additional role players off the secondary look. Many times the pick and pop guys aren't the first ones to touch the ball. The way it generally works, is that based off rotations it's generally the 3rd or even 4th guy who gets the clean look. Neither Porter nor Battier would truly be able to accomplish that.

Because neither of those guys is a threat to go to the basket, it makes defensive rotations much easier because defenders can sell out on defense to defend the 3. If you swing it to a guy like Pippen, who can put the ball on the ground and get to the hoop, it makes additional defenders collapse because of rotations, which was why the Triangle works. The Triangle works primarily because of the initial double team, but it's the secondary defense, where it really shines. It's why when you doubled Shaq, you had Kobe as that secondary threat. Its why when you doubled MJ, you had Pippen on the back side. In this case, Gasol isn't nearly as effective because his game is mostly perimeter oriented (which he is still great at).

I really liked when you had Grant Hill on the same initial team as Jordan, because I thought that was a great combo. If you had Hill and Jordan, with say Porter, Okur and Rodman, you could see how your offense would be much more effective. You would have two spot up shooters, including a big to draw another big away from the hoop. Then you would have a dynamic slasher/passer/scorer/shooter on the backside who would create additional looks for guys like Porter and Okur.

GREAT COUNTER... I moved Grant because I felt I needed an automatic scorer in my first group... I'd also point out that while Gasol is more perimeter based that worked well enough to get back2back titles... I also felt that Porter is more of an all around shooter (mid range as well) just a 3pt threat... definitely not Pippen in overall play making but a better all around shooter and passer... but that's more to your point, now I'm asking a role player to have a bigger role... and while I don't believe he has a defender at PG to slow down Porter, its a lot to ask of my 3rd option... with that I appreciate the discussion, I still believe I pull out a slight victory on MJs shoulders, your breakdowns are very in depth persuading... I change my vote (not really lol) but great break downs I'm completely good now... thank you good sir

 

[CitySushi]

GREAT COUNTER... I moved Grant because I felt I needed an automatic scorer in my first group... I'd also point out that while Gasol is more perimeter based that worked well enough to get back2back titles... I also felt that Porter is more of an all around shooter (mid range as well) just a 3pt threat... definitely not Pippen in overall play making but a better all around shooter and passer... but that's more to your point, now I'm asking a role player to have a bigger role... and while I don't believe he has a defender at PG to slow down Porter, its a lot to ask of my 3rd option... with that I appreciate the discussion, I still believe I pull out a slight victory on MJs shoulders, your breakdowns are very in depth persuading... I change my vote (not really lol) but great break downs I'm completely good now... thank you good sir

Gasol definitely is a two time champ in the Triangle, but they also had a great secondary play maker on the weakside in Lamar Odom. Look at Odom's game and aside from defensively, his skill set mirrors Pippen's. Big slasher with extraordinary handle and passing. Gasol and Kobe ran the show, but Odom was what made it work. When they went small and put Odom at the 4 and Gasol at the 5, it created so much spacing because they were threats from the outside. Double Kobe and you have him kick it out to those guys.

I actually thought for your team Odom would have been a much better fit than Battier. I thought that's who you were going to take at the end.

 

[Nosferatu]

I dont mean to be an ahole but can y'all move this to a PM so it doesnt keep going to the top of the forum thread list.

Thank you..

 

[femurov]

I dont mean to be an ahole but can y'all move this to a PM so it doesnt keep going to the top of the forum thread list.

Thank you..

Why don't they just move it to the "Picks" thread, where all the other conversations go?