48 hours to go, Houston we got problems

[Gulf of Brazil]

Jayfan touched on this subject first but I'm going to expand the convo. We all know CB Chris Houston had a setback last year. Mayhew talks about how Houston's injury came about in August then again in November and December before finally being shut down the last 3 games. How much does his injury now affect our draft should he need surgery and possibly out for the season.

Here's a couple of links; Mayhew reveals that Chris Houston?s injury is a major concern
in this one above, the statement is; Houston may be heading towards surgery and at this point, it’s impossible to tell if he were going to be available at all in 2014.

With the draft coming up on Thursday, the Lions and Mayhew may be forced to choose one of the top cornerbacks with their 10th overall selection making Justin Gilbert or Darqueze Dennard their top choice.


Chris Houston hopeful, but Detroit Lions unsure if he'll bounce back | Detroit Free Press | freep.com
in this one above, the statement is; Chris Houston is hoping he'll be back on the field and playing at the high level he showed two years ago, but even the Detroit Lions cornerback can't say with any certainty that will happen this fall.

That's our goal” to be back this fall, Houston said. “I can only do whatever the doctors (say), and whatever happens - but right now that's the goal.”

Houston said he's dealt with toe injuries off and on throughout his career. He underwent surgery on the toe in high school, and re-injured it when someone stepped on his foot last fall.

“I think the longer it goes, I think the more concerns you get,” Mayhew said. “Something happened back in August, November that we're still dealing with, so there's a concern there. But I guess we'll see what happens.”

Mayhew said he would not rule out surgery as a possibility, though nothing has been determined yet.

BB_72 if true that surgery may be required and the possibility Houston's out for the year or maybe through the special IR 11 weeks, how could they not draft a CB early ? Does DC Austin have enough confidence in the CB's on the current roster to feel good about going forth with them ? The only CB I see worthy of drafting is Dennard. Yes, he is physical and may draw penalties but he is head and shoulders above Gilbert, Fuller, Roby, (not Verrett) in run support not to mention the fact he is the best pure blanket-cover corner. Verrett has better overall technique than Dennard, IMO, but the physicality by Dennard (not the PI's, illegal contact) is rare and would suit going up against Marshall, Jeffrey, Nelson.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

Does Austin trust our young cornerbacks to give them playing time by coaching them up or is he in Mayhew's ear wanting one of this years CB's like Gilbert, Dennard or Fuller. Austin has stated previously that he prefers the bigger, faster CB's, similar to what Mayhew has stated. That would be Slay and Greenwood who are currently on the roster as both Bentley and Green are about 5' 10" and 185 lbs each.

I have stated previously that our current roster of CB's need more time to develop and wasn't on board with drafting any CB this year. Having signed Cassius Vaughn and Mathis doesn't seem to appealing although Mathis did play the best of any of our CB's last year..

What do you think ?

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

What do you think ?

I think if Houston is hurt -- the weakest part of the Lions team just got weaker. I am just not sold on any of the 3 CB's we draft a couple years ago. Detroit's best hope is that Slay has progressed to the point where he can be relied upon on a weekly bas

Mayhew made a statement that I found interesting. He said when drafting CB's, you either get a CB who just has it and can contribute immediately in year 1. Some guys take a year or two to finally get it. And if you don't get it by year 3, you are never going to get it.

Bentley, Greenwood and Green are going on year 3. I'm guessing if these guys don't start contributing quality play for the team -- Detroit is going to be drafting replacements for them. Actually -- after reading Mayhew's comments -- it actually made me feel like we are going to see the Lions drafting a CB in round 1.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

^^^ Trustme... with the new info now out on Houston, which I believe they've known for quite some time now, a CB at #10 (maybe even a trade down 2-3 slots at most) seems inevitable.


I do agree with your assessment in that if Bentley, Green and Greenwood do NOT show dramatic improvement this year, they're likely gone. At least Bentley and Green. Greenwood receives a year pass as he was out the entire 2012 season due to abdominal surgery and only has had two starts. Bentley and Green have each had 5+ starts in two years.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I am prepared to role with Slay on one side, Bentley or Green in nickel, and Greenwood on the other side (he wins the competition for that spot). Mathis is the #1 reserve and mentors them all.

For all my salary cap fans as well, the Lions can cut Houston on June 2 and split the cap hit on his $5.2m in dead money over the next two years. We would actually free up $2.2m this year. Barring a significant improvement in his play this year he would have been released next offseason anyway. Certainly if he doesn't play in 2014 we aren't going to roll the dice on a player who will carry a cap hit of $5.8m in 2015 hoping that he might be productive again. This might be a blessing in disguise for us.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

^^^ DR. Evil-er.. those are great points regarding Houston. I totally forgot the after June 1st cut and splitting the dead-money over two years. Is there a limit to just 1 player or 2 players where you can do that ? A serious question BTW.


I sure as hell hope Greenwood progresses this year and would absolutely love for him to lock down one of the starting CB spots. There is nothing worse than a 1st year CB starting, JMO.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Is Is there a limit to just 1 player or 2 players where you can do that ? A serious question BTW.

The rule as it relates to June 1 cuts allow for teams to designate up to two players. But that isn't relevant here. We don't need to do anything with Houston until a definitive medical diagnosis has been made.

The designated June 1 cut rule is a player benefit and does not alter the way any player cut impacts the salary cap. Because of the way the NFL does it accounting (for lack of a better term) ANY player cut after June 1 will only have that years unammortized amount count towards the cap. The remainder vests the following year, that is what gives the appearance of a two year amortization. But in many of those cases the amounts won't be equal.

I did not explain the idea of releasing Houston very we'll so I will try again. Houston got a $6.5m signing bonus which counts as $1.3m/yr towards the cap. He has $5.2m in dead money left. If the Lions cut him after June 1 he would carry ONLY a $1.3m cap hit in 2014 and the team would actually free up $3.5m in space. BUT, the remaining $3.9m left to amortize will all count in 2015. So we would have a dead money deal for that amount count against the cap.

Now for the really complex part. Without reading the actual contract language it's impossible for me to know if his last contract is written the way many veteran contracts are nowadays where they read if the player is on the roster June 1 their base salary becomes fully guaranteed for that year. If his contract says that then there is nothing to gain by cutting him since it would cost more than keeping him. It is little tricks like that which make the salary cap so absolutely fascinating.

The teams are very well aware of that language and will fight to keep it out. As I look at the alignment of the contract related to the signing bonus, guaranteed amount, and salary I am inclined to think that language is NOT in his contract. I say that simply because the Lions fully met his guaranteed amount in the contracts first year via his signing bonus and salary. As a result giving in on the language of the June 1 salary guarantee would be essentially giving him a second form of guaranteed money. Contracts are written with one or the other, not both.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

^^^ Got it... Thanks, DR.Evil-er... I thought there could be up to two players designated for cut after June 1st that could be split into two years for cap relief but wasn't sure... I have read a lot on cap, trades and such since last June on a website "ask the commish."

 

[gandydancer]

I am prepared to role with Slay on one side, Bentley or Green in nickel, and Greenwood on the other side (he wins the competition for that spot). Mathis is the #1 reserve and mentors them all.

For all my salary cap fans as well, the Lions can cut Houston on June 2 and split the cap hit on his $5.2m in dead money over the next two years. We would actually free up $2.2m this year. Barring a significant improvement in his play this year he would have been released next offseason anyway. Certainly if he doesn't play in 2014 we aren't going to roll the dice on a player who will carry a cap hit of $5.8m in 2015 hoping that he might be productive again. This might be a blessing in disguise for us.

I was going ask that question on Houston. I know there is part of contract money that accelerates when cut. Was not sure which though. Does the bonus money spread out for life of contract come due upon release?

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I was going ask that question on Houston. I know there is part of contract money that accelerates when cut. Was not sure which though. Does the bonus money spread out for life of contract come due upon release?

If released after June 1, and assuming he doesn't have the roster salary guarantee language, it will apply only this year's ammortizing amount, which is $1.3m. The remaining $3.m would apply in 2015.

I personally think that hurts us because I was expecting him to be cut next offseason when the Lions would net $3.5m in cap relief for doing so. Under this scenario that number drops to $1.9m.

The offset would be that the $3.5m in savings we would get cutting him now is needed to sign the rookies. So we would not need to restructure another contract assuming a Suh extension isn't done. But, because you must always be in compliance with the salary cap we would need to cut him pretty soon to free up the $ needed to sign the rookies before mini camp begins.

 

[Rollingthndr]

If that is true and Mayhew trades up for Watkins. Dude should be handed his walking papers before the second round starts on Friday night. I'm going to say Gilbert,Dennard or Fuller are must draft options at this point.

 

[Old Lion]

I think we trade back a few spots and take Fuller. I think that has been the plan for some time now. Probably since we signed Tate. I think Gilbert may go first. We will end up with one of the other 2. I would not mind if we took Jean-Baptiste in the 3rd either with the extra pick too.

 

[LPinSLC]

I'd still take Dix. If they don't have faith in any of the top 3 CB's then they shouldn't do it just to satisfy a need. Mathis was our best Cb last year anyways. Add Slay and his anticipated improvements and you have your starters. Even if they draft one in the first, kid wouldn't likely start this year anyways. So then why panic and take a lesser talent?

 

[tpaulus_2]

I don't think there's any correlation between Houston needing surgery (or not needing surgery) and us drafting a CB at #10.

 

[Microwahevo]

I'd still take Dix. If they don't have faith in any of the top 3 CB's then they shouldn't do it just to satisfy a need. Mathis was our best Cb last year anyways. Add Slay and his anticipated improvements and you have your starters. Even if they draft one in the first, kid wouldn't likely start this year anyways. So then why panic and take a lesser talent?

Exactly. There isn't a CB in this draft that can provide what we need for this year. I, like LP, see Mathis and Slay as our day 1 starters if Houston has surgery. If not, it'll more than likely be Houston and Mathis with slay subbing in and/or playing in nickel.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

I think we trade back a few spots and take Fuller. I think that has been the plan for some time now. Probably since we signed Tate. I think Gilbert may go first. We will end up with one of the other 2. I would not mind if we took Jean-Baptiste in the 3rd either with the extra pick too.

I totally agree with the Fuller being targeted from the eyes of Mayhew and DC Austin, now that Houston may or may not play at all in 2014.

Fuller provides similar traits as does Quin. He could play CB, FS or even some SS in an emergency, JMO. When I was working up "my draft for the Lions last night, Fuller is who I put in for 1st round pick. I'd really like to see the kids from 2012 and Slay be given the chance to play but I just don't see it happening other than nickel or dime situations.

 

[broncosmitty]

I don't think there's any correlation between Houston needing surgery (or not needing surgery) and us drafting a CB at #10.

Me either. And I don't think there's a correlation between Houston playing and our secondary being good. He's meaningless at this point, IMO. (His salary states otherwise.)

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

This off of Walter Football regarding Gilbert or Dennard at CB

this is specifically off Dennard's profile... the same came up for Gilbert

There are a lot of teams that could target Dennard in the first round of the 2014 NFL Draft. The highest that he could hope to go would be the Lions.

Detroit could consider taking Dennard with the 10th-overall pick since the team needs a No. 1 corner. I'm skeptical that the Lions will take a corner because Martin Mayhew put money into Chris Houston while using early-round picks on Darius Slay and Bullet Bill Bentley, along with some other draft picks. Detroit also hired the Ravens defensive backs coach Teryl Austin to be its defensive coordinator, and I think the Lions want Austin to fix the secondary rather than use their first-round pick for it. Still, Dennard is in play for Detroit.

Does anyone NOT think that a CB won't be in play at #10 ? I wouldn't do it but it's Mayhew we're talking about. JMO, no QB or CB is worthy of a top 20 pick this. I just DON'T have any trust in Mayhew's thought process for a 1st round pick this year. Gotta be me only, I guess.

 

[Microwahevo]

this is specifically off Dennard's profile... the same came up for Gilbert

There are a lot of teams that could target Dennard in the first round of the 2014 NFL Draft. The highest that he could hope to go would be the Lions.

Detroit could consider taking Dennard with the 10th-overall pick since the team needs a No. 1 corner. I'm skeptical that the Lions will take a corner because Martin Mayhew put money into Chris Houston while using early-round picks on Darius Slay and Bullet Bill Bentley, along with some other draft picks. Detroit also hired the Ravens defensive backs coach Teryl Austin to be its defensive coordinator, and I think the Lions want Austin to fix the secondary rather than use their first-round pick for it. Still, Dennard is in play for Detroit.

Does anyone NOT think that a CB won't be in play at #10 ? I wouldn't do it but it's Mayhew we're talking about. JMO, no QB or CB is worthy of a top 20 pick this. I just DON'T have any trust in Mayhew's thought process for a 1st round pick this year. Gotta be me only, I guess.

I don't think Mayhew can go wrong in the first round this year, barring certain trade scenarios. If we do trade up, but give up a ton to do so, that would be dumb imo.

I also don't feel any of the CBs should go top 10. They don't seem to have those "lockdown" skills that lockdown corners seem to possess....imo of course. I am very excited to see what Austin can do with our secondary.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

I don't think Mayhew can go wrong in the first round this year, barring certain trade scenarios. If we do trade up, but give up a ton to do so, that would be dumb imo.

I also don't feel any of the CBs should go top 10. They don't seem to have those "lockdown" skills that lockdown corners seem to possess....imo of course. I am very excited to see what Austin can do with our secondary.

I can't wait to see what Austin can do either. I do think he has worked with better overall talent in stops at AZ, with The Whiz, and at Balt (Jimmy Smith, LaDarius Webb, Carey Williams, Ed Reed, Pollard, Elam).

That we definitely agree upon, that there are no top 10, or even top 20 CB's (JMO), and do not possess lock-down skills. I know he's hard on what he sees from a CB, having played the position in the pro's (meaning him), but this draft scares the hell out of me regarding him. He has done well with his 1st round picks and I have absolutely nothing to base any facts to throw out there. But damn, my gut tells me he makes the trade for Watkins up to #3, giving up this years 1st and 2nd rd picks plus next years 1st rd, all while getting back Jax's 2014 1st rd #3 and both their 4th rd picks #105 and #114. Nothing more than a gut feeling.

Watkins is a talent, IMO. I am sure many posters will say that's too much but in theory that would be true value for Watkins for the mere fact Jax could state our next years 1st may very well be in the 20's, assuming we have the talent to make the playoffs in 2014. Mayhew's defense could be that we've drafted #5 in 2013, #23 in 2012, #13 in 2011, #2 in 2010. I'm not saying it will be done but just gut feeling.