2Pac = GOAT? Why?

[RP-29]

Tupac is the GOAT.

Come at me trolls!

This comment was lifted from the Eminem-Adrian Peterson thread and it got some likes. Tupac had been mentioned in a few previous comments in that thread.

What I would like to know is WHY some of you fine gentlemen believe 2Pac is the greatest rapper of all time.

I've had a very low success rate of acceptable answers to that question, and I'm hoping maybe, just maybe, someone on this site can conduct an intelligent self-analysis and produce some coherent civilized answers.

To be clear, the intent of this thread is not to debate who IS the GOAT. I just want some logical explanations to why so many people share an opinion that makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[Cleaves2000]

I never cared for tupac as a person once he signed with death row, but to not know why he is considered the GOAT is crazy....growing up in that era i remember the day i got 2pacs first tape....that and jodeci on the same day.....remembered him from digital underground.....and the guy was so talented....over the years all the music that still gets released....2pac was one of if not the greatest song(rap) writer out there.....the guy had so much shit on DAT and in books....not to mention once he signed with death row and got top notch beats, he crossed over to the burbs.....not only was he the king in the ghetto but he was hitting the top 40 scene..


If you dont think he's the GOAT, id like to hear who you think is.......biggy? Couldve been if he had more material and left a bigger legacy.....i cant even think of one rapper who it could be....

Now thats not saying hes MY favorite.....i enjoy nas, the dayton family, bone thugs, trick daddy, and BG myself.....

 

[RP-29]

I appreciate the response.
There's no question Tupac was a talented rapper, but what about him made him transcendent to the point of GOAT?
You cite he was one of the greatest writers, but I just don't see it. Give some examples of something he wrote that directly inspired you or inspired awe in you?
To partially answer your question, I don't think Biggie is GOAT either, although I do think Biggie was a better lyricist than Tupac. I don't want to reveal much of my personal opinions yet for the sake of keeping the objective of this thread on course.

So... Seriously, what made Tupac so special?

 

[Gooch1034]

I have always heard Tupac wasn't the thug he portrayed himself as but I don't have a clue if its true or not. I was never a fan of Tupac or most rap but the guy could write like no other IMO.

 

[Cleaves2000]

I mean i cant prove it but just looking at all the shit he wrote....the guy wrote 200 songs for all eyez on me and that went down as one of the greatest rap albums ever. Imagine the 170 or so songs that didnt make the cut. i can only speak for me but violent was a great written song. Back in the days when stories were actually in songs lyrics. Today its just talking money bitches and guns then using some lame hook. I also loved fuck the world, hail mary, changes. 2pac rapped about anything. One moment he was positive rapping about keep ya head up then he would be all gangsta with something like violent. Also thout dear mama was well written. And this isnt even talking about his ability to free style about anything.

 

[Cleaves2000]

I have always heard Tupac wasn't the thug he portrayed himself as but I don't have a clue if its true or not. I was never a fan of Tupac or most rap but the guy could write like no other IMO.

Yeah i agree. He really got all thugged out once he got with death row. He was t that way with digital underground and he also went to a special art school where he met jada pinkett.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Pac was greatness everything about his style and lyrics proved it. He was consistently good.


Personally Eminem is my favor rapper of all time and Rakim can be argued as the best as he paved the way and influenced guys like Pac and Eminem.


Biggy would join them as my top 4 or Mt. Rushmore of the game.

 

[RP-29]

I mean i cant prove it but just looking at all the shit he wrote....the guy wrote 200 songs for all eyez on me and that went down as one of the greatest rap albums ever. Imagine the 170 or so songs that didnt make the cut. i can only speak for me but violent was a great written song. Back in the days when stories were actually in songs lyrics. Today its just talking money bitches and guns then using some lame hook. I also loved fuck the world, hail mary, changes. 2pac rapped about anything. One moment he was positive rapping about keep ya head up then he would be all gangsta with something like violent. Also thout dear mama was well written. And this isnt even talking about his ability to free style about anything.

You cite "Violent" as a well-written and impactful track. Fair enough. Good track. Released in 1991 on "2Pacalypse Now". Also released in '91 were Public Enemy's "Apocalypse 91... The Enemy Strikes Black", Naughty By Nature's debut self-titled album and Geto Boys' "We Can't Be Stopped". I counter that all three of those albums had several tracks just as well-written, better executed and more culturally impactful than "Violent" or any other song on "2Pacalypse Now".

You cite "Dear Mama" as a well-written and impactful track. Fair enough. Good track. Released in 1995 on "Me Against The World". Also released in '95 were Bone Thugs-N-Harmony's "E 1999 Eternal", Mobb Deep's "The Infamous" and Raekwon's "Only Built 4 Cuban Linx". I counter that all three of those albums had several tracks just as well-written, better executed and more culturally impactful than "Dear Mama" or any other song on "Me Against The World".

You cite "All Eyez On Me" as one of the best rap albums ever. Good album. Released in 1996. Some other phenomenal albums from '96 are Outkast's "ATLiens", Jay-Z's "Reasonable Doubt" and Ghostface Killah's "Ironman". What makes "All Eyez On Me" the slightest bit better than any of those three albums just from that one year? Now maybe that album held a special place in your heart, but I didn't think it was any better or more impactful than any of those three albums or several other personal favorites from that year alone.

You mention Tupac's lyrical versatility. It's true, but it's not like Pac is the only MC to ever have multiple topics on his resume. Even Too $hort, whose predominant niche in the rap game is sex, spit classic tracks like "The Ghetto" and "So You Want to Be a Gangster". Method Man loves rapping about weed, but one of the greatest rap tracks to ever grace the airwaves was "I'll Be There For You (You're All I Need to Get By)".

I appreciate your feedback. Pac clearly reached you in ways he didn't reach me.

Unfortunately, I still don't quite have any substantial answers yet as to why he's so widely-perceived as the greatest rapper of all time though. What was so transcendent about him?

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Hardest working rapper in the history of the game, over 250+ songs (alot of them good) before dying at the age of 25. Most 25 year old rappers don't have a fraction of that, you compare catalogs with any rapper and won't find anyone who matches Tupac at age 25.

2pac was not the "gangster" he seems to be portrayed and rememered as, after he was shot the first time his music and his overall personality drastically changed. After being accused of r*pe, he vowed never to make a pro-female song again because no one supported him. The more fucked up shit happened to him, the more violent his music got.

He did transcend the game because after Tupac came out with all his "not afraid to die violently" music, Biggie and many other artists copied him. Biggie pretty much made party music until Tupac got big, then he made "Ready 2 Die".

Oh by the way, that post in the OP was just a joke, in my personal opinion he is the greatest, but I only made that post as a joke since my username is outlawimmortal. I thought I'd give folks a chance to talk some ish lol.

 

[RP-29]

Hardest working rapper in the history of the game, over 250+ songs (alot of them good) before dying at the age of 25. Most 25 year old rappers don't have a fraction of that, you compare catalogs with any rapper and won't find anyone who matches Tupac at age 25.

2pac was not the "gangster" he seems to be portrayed and rememered as, after he was shot the first time his music and his overall personality drastically changed. After being accused of r*pe, he vowed never to make a pro-female song again because no one supported him. The more fucked up shit happened to him, the more violent his music got.

He did transcend the game because after Tupac came out with all his "not afraid to die violently" music, Biggie and many other artists copied him. Biggie pretty much made party music until Tupac got big, then he made "Ready 2 Die".

Oh by the way, that post in the OP was just a joke, in my personal opinion he is the greatest, but I only made that post as a joke since my username is outlawimmortal. I thought I'd give folks a chance to talk some ish lol.

Thanks for dropping your two pennies into the conversation. I was hoping since you have such a strong opinion on Pac, you'd be able to breakdown your opinion of him a little.

"Hardest working" ...with some support for your opinion. Thank you! That's a legitimate reason to consider someone the best. I do have an alternate perspective on that though. He only released about 100 of those songs under his supervision. The other 150 were unreleased, potentially throw-away rhymes. Every musician writes a bunch of songs that go nowhere. Without his permission, many of those unreleased songs were released, and it's very possible he wouldn't have wanted them to be or would've changed them drastically before releasing them. Personally, I don't count anything that was released postmortem after Makaveli as an official 2Pac song or album because his stamp of approval was not on it. Also, who knows how many phenomenal rhymes someone like Eminem wrote, but dumped in the trash for one reason or another without anyone ever seeing them.

I want to be careful to avoid derailing this thread into a Pac v Big thread. Your secondary support opinion leans into that a little by referencing that Big copied Pac on "Ready to Die". While it's possible there might be some minute truth to that, the real truth is that everybody emulates their predecessors in some form and many musicians morph their sound to what's hot. Pac did party music with Digital Underground before his Thug Life transformation. You suggest Pac transcended the rap game because people copied him, well a very simple rebuttal to that is both Pac and Big copied guys like Ice Cube, Ice-T and KRS-One. What made Pac somehow greater than those three?

Unfortunately, I'm still not even close to being enlightened on what makes Pac so special. His rhymes didn't come close to exuding the sharp intelligence of a guy like KRS-One. His rhyme delivery was garbage compared to guys like Twista and Busta Rhymes. His rhyme flow was as jagged as broken glass when compared to Outkast, Bone Thugs and Snoop. He didn't have the longevity of guys like Too $hort and Ice Cube. He wasn't even really a pioneer of anything except "famous murdered rappers".

 

[Cleaves2000]

You cite "Violent" as a well-written and impactful track. Fair enough. Good track. Released in 1991 on "2Pacalypse Now". Also released in '91 were Public Enemy's "Apocalypse 91... The Enemy Strikes Black", Naughty By Nature's debut self-titled album and Geto Boys' "We Can't Be Stopped". I counter that all three of those albums had several tracks just as well-written, better executed and more culturally impactful than "Violent" or any other song on "2Pacalypse Now".

You cite "Dear Mama" as a well-written and impactful track. Fair enough. Good track. Released in 1995 on "Me Against The World". Also released in '95 were Bone Thugs-N-Harmony's "E 1999 Eternal", Mobb Deep's "The Infamous" and Raekwon's "Only Built 4 Cuban Linx". I counter that all three of those albums had several tracks just as well-written, better executed and more culturally impactful than "Dear Mama" or any other song on "Me Against The World".

You cite "All Eyez On Me" as one of the best rap albums ever. Good album. Released in 1996. Some other phenomenal albums from '96 are Outkast's "ATLiens", Jay-Z's "Reasonable Doubt" and Ghostface Killah's "Ironman". What makes "All Eyez On Me" the slightest bit better than any of those three albums just from that one year? Now maybe that album held a special place in your heart, but I didn't think it was any better or more impactful than any of those three albums or several other personal favorites from that year alone.

You mention Tupac's lyrical versatility. It's true, but it's not like Pac is the only MC to ever have multiple topics on his resume. Even Too $hort, whose predominant niche in the rap game is sex, spit classic tracks like "The Ghetto" and "So You Want to Be a Gangster". Method Man loves rapping about weed, but one of the greatest rap tracks to ever grace the airwaves was "I'll Be There For You (You're All I Need to Get By)".

I appreciate your feedback. Pac clearly reached you in ways he didn't reach me.

Unfortunately, I still don't quite have any substantial answers yet as to why he's so widely-perceived as the greatest rapper of all time though. What was so transcendent about him?

Thing is, everytime u switch to a new album/year, 2pac is still there, but yet every album/artist changes. To me public enemy was overated. Didnt care for their music except for a few gimmick songs. 2pac put out great cd after great cd. Most artists cant claim that. And just for the facts. I was team biggie back in the day.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Thanks for dropping your two pennies into the conversation. I was hoping since you have such a strong opinion on Pac, you'd be able to breakdown your opinion of him a little.

"Hardest working" ...with some support for your opinion. Thank you! That's a legitimate reason to consider someone the best. I do have an alternate perspective on that though. He only released about 100 of those songs under his supervision. The other 150 were unreleased, potentially throw-away rhymes. Every musician writes a bunch of songs that go nowhere. Without his permission, many of those unreleased songs were released, and it's very possible he wouldn't have wanted them to be or would've changed them drastically before releasing them. Personally, I don't count anything that was released postmortem after Makaveli as an official 2Pac song or album because his stamp of approval was not on it. Also, who knows how many phenomenal rhymes someone like Eminem wrote, but dumped in the trash for one reason or another without anyone ever seeing them.

I want to be careful to avoid derailing this thread into a Pac v Big thread. Your secondary support opinion leans into that a little by referencing that Big copied Pac on "Ready to Die". While it's possible there might be some minute truth to that, the real truth is that everybody emulates their predecessors in some form and many musicians morph their sound to what's hot. Pac did party music with Digital Underground before his Thug Life transformation. You suggest Pac transcended the rap game because people copied him, well a very simple rebuttal to that is both Pac and Big copied guys like Ice Cube, Ice-T and KRS-One. What made Pac somehow greater than those three?

Unfortunately, I'm still not even close to being enlightened on what makes Pac so special. His rhymes didn't come close to exuding the sharp intelligence of a guy like KRS-One. His rhyme delivery was garbage compared to guys like Twista and Busta Rhymes. His rhyme flow was as jagged as broken glass when compared to Outkast, Bone Thugs and Snoop. He didn't have the longevity of guys like Too $hort and Ice Cube. He wasn't even really a pioneer of anything except "famous murdered rappers".

Man i hated KRS-one. Never bought one of their CD's. Never cared for busta. He reminds me of ludacris. Gimmick to be funny. I liked outkast pre dre/erykah badu days. Once she fucked him up he was nust making cd's for the suburb kids. First outkast cd was really only one i liked. Bone thugs ill always love. Twista too. Im bias since i hung with them and got fugged up. I met alot of cool people but bone thugs and adina howard were my favs. I also believe if eminem wouldve signed the dayton family, they wouldve blew up. If bootleg couldve stayed straight. No future is my all time fav song. Bizzy bone was a mess too.

 

[Cleaves2000]

One more thing. Ice T sucked so bad. I went to a catholic school and they all listened to him. When i went back home into the hood nobody was bumpin him. Too short is a million times better

 

[RP-29]

Thing is, everytime u switch to a new album/year, 2pac is still there, but yet every album/artist changes. To me public enemy was overated. Didnt care for their music except for a few gimmick songs. 2pac put out great cd after great cd. Most artists cant claim that. And just for the facts. I was team biggie back in the day.

Man i hated KRS-one. Never bought one of their CD's. Never cared for busta. He reminds me of ludacris. Gimmick to be funny. I liked outkast pre dre/erykah badu days. Once she fucked him up he was nust making cd's for the suburb kids. First outkast cd was really only one i liked. Bone thugs ill always love. Twista too. Im bias since i hung with them and got fugged up. I met alot of cool people but bone thugs and adina howard were my favs. I also believe if eminem wouldve signed the dayton family, they wouldve blew up. If bootleg couldve stayed straight. No future is my all time fav song. Bizzy bone was a mess too.

One more thing. Ice T sucked so bad. I went to a catholic school and they all listened to him. When i went back home into the hood nobody was bumpin him. Too short is a million times better

Funny thing is... I agree with most of your personal preferences.

I was never big on PE, KRS-One/BDP or Ice-T, but I respect what they did and, like them or not, they were pioneers in the industry.

I like some Busta and some Luda, but not huge fans of either. Busta has a mean delivery and Luda has a smooth flow on most of their songs. I, personally, don't see how Pac's vocals were any better than either of those guys, though. Pac was a better writer than both, but his vocals were nothing special.

Outkast's first three albums are three of my all-time favorites. I agree, though, that they got too mainstream and experimental from "Stankonia" on. Fact is...Dre got bored with what got him there and started experimenting with music nobody was feeling, even Boi.

BTNH is one of my personal top 10 favorite rap acts. Their first two albums were amazing. From "The Art of War" on, though, they were not as consistently good.

Twista is actually my personal favorite all-time rapper. He gets little-to-no consideration for GOAT among popular opinion, but he should. He's got a lyrical delivery that's virtually unmatched in the history of music with a masterful flow along with it. He's almost always got some quality music to rap to and even when the music is nothing special, his vocals still drive a guy to love the song because his delivery and flow are so amazing. Just about every rapper and R&B singer recruits him to do a track with them and he always overshadows everyone on those collaborations. Twista is not East Coast or West Coast, he's All Coast and everything in between.

Too $hort is actually my second-favorite all-time rapper. $hort Dogg is unmatched at rappin' about sex with a slow smooth flow over a funky beat. $hort is not a brilliant songwriter with regards to vocabulary or range of topics, but his brilliance is that his rhyme flow and music mirror his topic. ...When he's rappin' about fuckin', his slow smooth rhyme flow mirrors a slow smooth fuck. Another tip-of-the-hat to $hort is that preferred topic of sex is universal to all ethnic groups. Many suburban and rural folks don't establish a connection to rap because most rappers rap about things that happen primarily in urban communities. Everyone can relate to sex. One last thing about Too $hort...he's got a collection of albums deeper than anyone in the industry. He's been rappin' since the '80's and still dope as fuck.

One final note... I was never team Biggie or team Tupac. I thought they both put out some decent songs, but I've never understood what made them so transcendent in the rap game in the eyes of the masses... and still don't. I guess everyone loves a martyr?

 

[elijah]

Pac wasn't the GOAT. He was the most influential rapper of all time, he made a huge impact, but he wasn't the GOAT. Influence is different from talent, and people mistake that often when talking about the GOAT of rap.

Eminem, Nas, Rakim and even Andre 3000 have all been more talented than Tupac.