29 year old Kobe vs 29 year old LeBron. Who you got?

[Mecca]

Not even the same argument. Duncan is a significantly better defender, rebounder and passer than Dirk ever was. McHale was a much better option defensively than Jamison and also was far more efficient.

Look I don't know what your basis of Reggie being better than KD is, but please come with something other than "competition"

KD averages 50% MORE points per game than reggie. More than double the rebounds and is a much better defender.

Your argument is incredibly weak and you've yet to make any valid point other than just outright dismissal of data.

Okay, we seem to have a disconnect and I think I see where that is.

I said that Durant and Paul George were the Miller and Drexler of this era.

Miller and Drexler to Lebron's Jordan.

You took that literally and I presented it as an analogy.

Durant = Miller because he is a great shooter who got to the finals. But, is not in the same league as Jordan *Bron* because he hasn't won anything.

But, I do stick with my level of competition statement.

I don't think Durant would put up those numbers against Wilkins, Bird, Worthy.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Jims_Doors]

I've said Magic was the best basketball player I've ever watched so yes I've seen Worthy play. Why the fuck is that the "have you seen him play" response such a big thing here? Worthy was pretty good athletically. Durant is more athletic then him. Worthy can't do all the things that Durant can do. Durant can do all the things Worthy did and in most cases better then Worthy did.

So you looked away when Magic played on the defensive end?

Great players play both ends. Magic could not do so.

 

[trojanfan12]

Agreed.

Mitch got in too this year, I believe.

But, I understand your, and others ,sentiment on Reggie.

It's called the HoF not the Hall of very good.

Still don't think he's the worst guy to have made it in.

I'm still sticking with Walton.

I'd have to go with Richmond.

Seriously though, it's easy to forget how good Bill Walton really was because of the injuries he suffered. Believe me, I want to agree. I hate that guy. It's like he intentionally went out and played for every team that I don't like, just to piss me off.

But Walton before the injuries was unfreakin'believeable.

 

[hockey878]

We can count Kobe's bad playoff series on 1 maybe 2 hands.
We can count Lebron's solid playoff series on 1 maybe 2 hands.

That's a pretty big difference, and I'm talking about series they did little to effect the outcome in. I don't care if they put up good numbers because stats mean little as I have already pointed out. Lebron had a 31 points in Game 6 this year in one of the greatest disappearing acts you will ever see. Lebron vs Orlando and Lebron vs Pistons, and Lebron vs Celtics (sorry forget the years) are really the only series in his career he looked like the star he should be.

Completely false.

 

[Mecca]

No, he isn't.

People forget that the Bird/Magic era was so special because they reached the top of the mountain against EACH OTHER.

I am a Lebron fan and think he will go down as a top 10 Alltime great, once it's all said and done.

But, you really have to grade today's players on the curve because of the level of competition.

Take Howard for example.

He is clearly the best Center, statistically, currently in the NBA.

But, look at him from a historical standpoint.

He doesn't even sniff Mourning status, let alone Shaq, Wilt and the Dream.

Same with Lebron.

He is head and shoulders above the rest.

But, he can't touch the Larry Legends, Magic's, Jordan's because they did it against each other and his closest competition is Kevin Durant/Paul George who would be the Reggie Miller and Clyde Drexler of the earlier era.

My original post.....

 

[Mecca]

I'd have to go with Richmond.

Seriously though, it's easy to forget how good Bill Walton really was because of the injuries he suffered. Believe me, I want to agree. I hate that guy. It's like he intentionally went out and played for every team that I don't like, just to piss me off.

But Walton before the injuries was unfreakin'believeable.

No, he was.

Again, I usually don't even comment on that era because it was a bit before my time.

So, I'm mostly going by him career numbers.

Another guy that would have been hell was Arvydis Sabonis.

He had 2 bad knees and was old when he came to the NBA.

Had he come in his prime?

He would have been a MONSTA!

 

[hockey878]

My original post.....

and then we argued for 2 pages with you saying Reggie and Durant are in the same class.

Maybe they are in the same analagous role.

But as far as skills, ability they are FAR FAR APART

 

[erckm510]

I didn't say he wouldn't. I said he might. I was being flippant. Of course he could keep up. But to imply the opposite is ludicrous.

And read up a little on your NBA history regarding the 80's and defense.

It's more about pace and not defense.

 

[Jims_Doors]

We can count Kobe's bad playoff series on 1 maybe 2 hands.
We can count Lebron's solid playoff series on 1 maybe 2 hands.

That's a pretty big difference, and I'm talking about series they did little to effect the outcome in. I don't care if they put up good numbers because stats mean little as I have already pointed out. Lebron had a 31 points in Game 6 this year in one of the greatest disappearing acts you will ever see. Lebron vs Orlando and Lebron vs Pistons, and Lebron vs Celtics (sorry forget the years) are really the only series in his career he looked like the star he should be.

Nowadays players are judged on how they played in the Finals.

Kobe played very good in 2 of the 7 Finals played

James in 3 of the 5 he played in.

 

[dontcallmesimple]

The playoffs against the Suns too.

Remember this?

The question is news again because on Monday, the Lakers begin a Western Conference finals series against the Suns. The issue is topical again because last week, folks accused LeBron James of sabotaging the Cleveland Cavaliers in a halfhearted effort in Game 5 of their losing series against the Boston Celtics.

Many thought Bryant did the same thing four years ago in the eighth-seeded Lakers showdown game against the top-seeded Suns.

Attempting to finish one of the greatest upsets in Laker history in Game 7, Bryant scored 23 points in the first half, yet the Lakers trailed 60-45. It was clear then that Bryant just didn't have enough help. He was burdened with Kwame Brown's slowness, Smush Parker's foolishness, and other pieces that just didn't fit.

In the second half, a frustrated Bryant seemingly made this point when he stopped shooting and, some say, stopped playing. He took only three shots in the half, scored but one point, and the Lakers lost the game, 121-90.

I was there. I thought it was Bryant making a statement. I don't think he purposely tried to lose, but I thought he was sending a message to the front office to clean up this mess.

"It was selfish, it was silly," I wrote.

Turns out, I was being kind. Many others around the league openly accused him of openly tanking the game, their chorus led by TNT's Charles Barkley, who called Bryant selfish and ranted enough that Bryant later appeared on the TNT show to defend himself.

Four years later, even after leading the Lakers to a Shaq-less title, Bryant continues to be haunted by the perception that Barkley was right.

I think this post is extremely inaccurate but I will try to help.

I remember the two series you are talking about. In the first, with Suns vs Lakers, everybody who watched basketball that year was amazed that Kobe was able to carry such an AWFUL team to the playoffs. And in that playoff series they gave the Suns a very tough fight and were leading the series at one point. Now that Suns team was so good that they should have been in the finals but were literally robbed by the Spurs. And that Spurs team swept the Cavs. So all in all Kobe worked magic with that team.

As for LeBron disappearing against the Celtics, I remember watching the last game of that series and saying the same thing. I think an old Shaq even scored more than LeBron in a game where LeBron was suppose to be a monster for his team. That was unacceptable.

 

[Mecca]

and then we argued for 2 pages with you saying Reggie and Durant are in the same class.

Maybe they are in the same analagous role.

But as far as skills, ability they are FAR FAR APART

No, you argued that.

I assumed you took my post the way I meant it.

And, again.....

Level of competition matters.

 

[hockey878]

I think this post is extremely inaccurate but I will try to help.

I remember the two series you are talking about. In the first, with Suns vs Lakers, everybody who watched basketball that year was amazed that Kobe was able to carry such an AWFUL team to the playoffs. And in that playoff series they gave the Suns a very tough fight and were leading the series at one point. Now that Suns team was so good that they should have been in the finals but were literally robbed by the Spurs. And that Spurs team swept the Cavs. So all in all Kobe worked magic with that team.

As for LeBron disappearing against the Celtics, I remember watching the last game of that series and saying the same thing. I think an old Shaq even scored more than LeBron in a game where LeBron was suppose to be a monster for his team. That was unacceptable.

Pretty sure lebron had like 27, 19 and 10.


Meanwhile.... Kobe in that suns series took something like 1 shot in the second half.

But he definitely didn't quit. he would never do that

 

[HammerDown]

Xavier McDaniel > BronBron

 

[Mecca]

I think this post is extremely inaccurate but I will try to help.

I remember the two series you are talking about. In the first, with Suns vs Lakers, everybody who watched basketball that year was amazed that Kobe was able to carry such an AWFUL team to the playoffs. And in that playoff series they gave the Suns a very tough fight and were leading the series at one point. Now that Suns team was so good that they should have been in the finals but were literally robbed by the Spurs. And that Spurs team swept the Cavs. So all in all Kobe worked magic with that team.

As for LeBron disappearing against the Celtics, I remember watching the last game of that series and saying the same thing. I think an old Shaq even scored more than LeBron in a game where LeBron was suppose to be a monster for his team. That was unacceptable.

Oh,

Those are Bill Plaschke's words from the LA Times.

Any errors are his.

Uncomfortable question returns to haunt Kobe Bryant - Los Angeles Times

 

[hockey878]

No, you argued that.

I assumed you took my post the way I meant it.

And, again.....

Level of competition matters.

Kevin Durant would be significantly better than Reggie Miller in any time period. Reggie Miller's competition was hardly better than KD's.

NOT TO MENTION. KD's competition are still building their legacy. Maybe one day we look back at Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron as all time greats. WE DON'T KNOW.

Level of competition argument is something you can use to make up a small difference between the 90's and 10's. Like if Reggie averaged 24 a game, then YES i'd give you that. MAYBE. But we are talking a substantial difference in EVERY category and KD hasn't even hit his prime yet.

And again, you can't compare the legacies of guys who will never step on the court again to guys who are still building their careers.

 

[tnerb57]

It's more about pace and not defense.

And that is 80's basketball in a nutshell. Torrid pace, weak defense.

 

[Mecca]

Kevin Durant would be significantly better than Reggie Miller in any time period. Reggie Miller's competition was hardly better than KD's.

NOT TO MENTION. KD's competition are still building their legacy. Maybe one day we look back at Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron as all time greats. WE DON'T KNOW.

Level of competition argument is something you can use to make up a small difference between the 90's and 10's. Like if Reggie averaged 24 a game, then YES i'd give you that. MAYBE. But we are talking a substantial difference in EVERY category and KD hasn't even hit his prime yet.

And again, you can't compare the legacies of guys who will never step on the court again to guys who are still building their careers.

Wait....You do remember that this all started because someone asked if Lebron was a better SF than Bird, right?

Refresh my memory, did they ever play each other?

People debate Shaq vs. Wilt vs. Russell all the time.

So, if you don't think it's a worthy debate, you are entitled to that.

But, you don't get to tell me what I can and can't compare.

Sports fandom is probably equal parts emotion and logic.

So, it doesn't have to make sense to you.

Agree to disagree

 

[Flambo Gus]

Hey, Simple.

Heheh

 

[hockey878]

Wait....You do remember that this all started because someone asked if Lebron was a better SF than Bird, right?

Refresh my memory, did they ever play each other?

People debate Shaq vs. Wilt vs. Russell all the time.

So, if you don't think it's a worthy debate, you are entitled to that.

But, you don't get to tell me what I can and can't compare.

Sports fandom is probably equal parts emotion and logic.

So, it doesn't have to make sense to you.

Agree to disagree

You can't make accurate comparisons across era's. it just isn't possible, not among comparable players anyway. (I can say without a doubt that Kwame Brown is not as good as Kareem) But Kevin Durant, isn't a comparable player to Reggie Miller in my mind. He does so much more than Reggie ever dreamed of.

But yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree

 

[Flambo Gus]

Kobe.